i may be naive but how exactly do cases get convictions without evidence?

[friday]

yes i understand that there are people on this site that have been wrongly accused and sent down but how? my experience of the system has been that to get a conviction you would basically need a police officer watching.

even with injuries which were documented by child protection, a witness who i had not previously known who saw me after the rape (and thus confirmed my distress directly after the incident) and a report from a nurse who saw the injuries and encouraged me to report it he still got away with it. for now at least (it was a hung jury so awaiting retrial).

so how do people with only one persons word against the other get convicted?

[RFLH]

quite easily.

Now in cases of our innocent guys - it's who puts on the best show plus the 'victim' giving evidence of behind a screen. That puts thoughts in the juries heads to start with.

Sex trials are the only ones where you don't need solid evidence - it's word against word.

I know that in your case the rape did happen - but in many it doesn't. The cases that happen where the 'victim' is proved to have lied now seem to be coming to the fore and this is making juries think twice. They've done themselves to favours by lying as its made a hard job even harder for the true victims of crime.

Who can work out juries anyway? It seems to be a flawed system now as the postings on here suggest.

ps - another reason why you can't get any sort of justice that makes sense.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-265-fine.html

[Rights Fighter]

When the judge sums up a case that turns on the word of the complainant only, he or she will say:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. You have heard the evidence. There is no more. In this particular case the only evidence there is - is the word of the complainant against the word of the defendant. It is up to you to decide who is telling the truth".

That decision can and does send innocent men to prison for a very long time.

Women (and men) who lie about sexual abuse do the genuine victims no justice at all.

[Not Guilty]

Not Naive

Hi Guys,
I have been having a real hard time lately and thought I would get on to the site and read. This gives me a chance to at least try and help people understand how this sort of thing happens. I can answer your questions from both sides of the fence. Being a police officer for such a long time, I was able to locate and produce evidence at Court in a number of sexual assault matters. But I did investigate two false allegations of sexual assault and both matters had glaring deficiences and produced a large motive to lie on both counts. That is they key to every sexual assault allegation - motive to lie. That is why it is essential for all parties concerned when they have been falsely accused to find out why they have been accused. There has to be a reason. I enlisted the assistance of a Criminal Profiler from the United States - Brent Turvey. This man has written books with New York Police Officers about how to better investigate sexual assault matters. But because of his investigations, he is also in a greater position to profile matters and determine whether it is a false complaint and motives to lie. The motive is usually contained in the evidence of complaint. Now putting on my other hat and being one who was imprisoned for a false complaint of sexual assault, one thing that was not attacked at my trial was motive to lie. It is easy to say that someone is lying, but harder to prove. That is why I would leave no stone unturned when it comes to discovering motive. In my matter the woman had alot to loose and chose to accuse me rather than loose her position at the NSW Police Academy. My life has been destroyed because of a job and it is a sad realisation that I live with - or should I say exist with.
I placed an application to the Supreme Court for a review of my conviction based on very positive evidence that I had located. Now I don't know about the UK system, but in Australia to have a conviction overturned is rare as the system will only interupt a conviction when there has been a substantial miscarriage of justice. Now to show you how stupid the system is, in my matter the woman presented to a doctor four days after the allegation date and stated I injured her vagina. The Doctor (who was on call and was a specialist anaesthetist) stated her injuries were consistent with her story. When I put in my submission for a review of conviction, I was able to provide evidence from the Senior Forensic Physician with the Victorian Police Force that stated he has never in all his career seen injuries as described be present after four days and went into a very scientific reason as to why the injuries were not caused four days earlier and are not those seen in any sexual assault. The Senior Crown Solicitor stated in his reply that "whilst the injuries suffered now cannot be excluded as having been occasioned at some other time, this does not interfere with the guilty verdict." Now here is a Crown official who is stating that the injuries I was supposed to have caused weren't occasioned at the time - but that doesn't mean I am not guilty of the offences - and the Supreme Court agreed. I, along with all of the experts (there were three) found the findings totally perverse. But the most perverse about this is the alleged victim stated that after this alleged assault, she went to a nightclub, stayed a short time, did not drink alcohol, danced but could not move because of the injuries and the pain. But I contacted her best friend and questioned him in relation to this matter about the alleged victims evidence. This is the actual evidence that was presented to the NSW Supreme Court (names have been blanked out)

"A very short time later I told **** that we needed to go home to which she stated to me, “Let’s stay and enjoy the rest of the night.” For the next two (2) hours or so I saw **** smiling, laughing dancing on the stage of Dingo’s. At one stage I only saw **** with at least six (6) OSG or SPG personnel (Sworn Police Officers) dancing on the stage. I saw that she was straddling one male’s leg whilst another was close behind. All persons dancing were touching each other bodies. I didn’t look to me that **** was in any pain what so ever. Later that night we walked home from Dingo’s to **** unit in Church Street Goulburn. The distance would be about 1km to 1.5km and we oth walked it. **** did not complain or show any signs of pain whilst walking home.”

Now the alleged victim stated she was injured, and I produced evidence that it was physically and scientifically impossible to have such injuries. She stated she was injured and could not dance and was upset because of the alleged assault. Now when you read the observations of her friend (who is a serving police officer) her behaviour is not that of a bona fide complainant. The Court said she was entitled to act whatever way she wanted as it was after the alleged assault - but it didn't matter that never once was her evidence consistent and she was caught out lying in her evidence but that never mattered.

The point I make and will continually make is that once a conviction is returned, the only way it will ever be overturned is if the woman admits she has lied. Now what do you think the chances are of that. That is why no stone can be left unturned. The allegation made against me was 19 September 2001 and now nearly seven years on, I still have nightmares, still simply exist and put my head on my pillow every night knowing the woman lied and put me in gaol for a crime I know I didn't commit and sadly she knows I didn't commit. For everyone that is accused, life can never be the same. It is a stain that can never be erased but the people that make the allegations will continue with their lives oblivious to the repercussions of their lies.

Leave no stone unturned. Have a say in your defence. Whilst the solicitors do the talking, it is you that does the time if the verdict goes the wrong way. And there is still one misconception that is out in the community - that a woman would never lie and go through all of this just to make a false complaint. This is reflected in the jury room and that is why finding positive and admissible evidence of motive to lie must be found.

And I would be only to happy to help anyone that is in this most harrowing position.

And embrace all those whom love you. I could not have gone on (and it is amazing what thoughts go through your mind) if it wasn't for the love and committment of my beautiful wife.

Good luck to you all.

[Rights Fighter]

Something I always go for when reviewing pre-trial cases is "motive".

However unpalatable it may be to the defendant, sometimes part of the motive is down to him/her for the accuser to lie.

However, one of the first questions I ask is "is this accuser in debt?". "Are they skint and need to move house quickly?" "Is this a teenager who wants to leave home because they feel stifled" (as opposed to sexually abused) "and do they need money to set up home?"

Then of course there is the "parental alienation syndrome".

Next is "get stepdad/mum's boyfriend out of the way so mum and dad can get back together".

And of course " I hate him/her for what he/she has done because of........"

Many false allegations are made due to real or perceived hurts that could have been addressed but have not been due to the defendant being unapproachable at the material time.

Having said that I believe that false allegations in the main are made maliciously, and for financial gain.

I would be very careful how much detail you put on this forum as it is very public.

[Not Guilty]

Not Guilty

And many thanks,

Sadly though because of my position, it was made very public which was the most embarrassing for my family. It was almost as if they were making a statement - even when I was arrested - at work in full uniform - it was like they were making an example out of me. My position is now and will always be shame for the hurt and embarrassment I have caused to my wife and family, not for any offence they say I have committed, but for putting them through all of this torment. If I feel this way, imagine how they feel? I do understand your point about detail, but in such case to make a point, as much detail as possible is required. But I know you speak out of genuine concern and I really appreciate that. I do take solace in the fact there are people like you out there protecting the rights of those that are falsely accused. Keep up the good fight.

[utterlydestroyed]

Dear Not Guilty

Anyone who has read my postings will know what I think of the corruption in the UK police in the way they deal with false allegations. However, 'not guilty', your tragic story moved me.

In particular your sound & clearly knowledgeable advice as an x-police officer regarding the 'need to establish motive' aspect on the part of the false accuser.

In the UK there is far to much misguided respect & deference paid towards the police and the mistaken UK public belief that they (police) will honestly 'investigate'? with 'integrity & impartiality' both sides of an allegation. Too many victims of false allegation, as RF regularily tells us, know to their bitter cost after the event that is not the case.

It worries me the number of people who seemingly 'blindly' invest faith in a 'duty solicitor' (I was fortunate with mine, plus I knew following my arrest, to get the eyewitness statements before police could corrupt the evidence or bully & intimidate the witnesses. IT HAPPENS!) & folly of belief the 'police', will rightfully clear them from a false allegation, because they, (as the real victim) know the truth of their inocence.

Please, DO NOT sit back and let the system grind along.

Please, SEEK OUT information, evidence, witnesses, & as made clear by 'NOT GUILTY', seek out the motive on the part of the vile false accuser.

...and DO NOT hand it over to police, as RF has previously made plain, witnesses statements & evidence to prove ones inocence have a nasty habit of ...disappearing once in police hands.

The stain of false allegation (let alone a false conviction) does indeed mare one for life...and in my own personal experience, there are corrupt police who will continue to abuse you long, long after others think it it is all over for you.

[frankgallagherwasere]

I was bored are so read again and thought this one sounds interesting and thought provoking

People make allegations for 2 specific reasons:-
1 Something actually happened
2 They want to make others believe something actually happened

The problem is that often those who are in the first instance say it as it was and depending on circumstances its the truth and nothing sensationalist. Now I know serious assault happens but its actually very rare, most accusations are surrounding the home not in public with strangers.

However in the second instance of false allegations the person or persons making the claim have an objective to harm those they accuse. Therefore I would assume their allegations and story are prepared beforehand and some research into what and when to say things. They probably use whats known as court room jargon as this is what they read or told to say. Therefore you find many comments and suggestions that have absolutely nothing to do with the suggested crime but just EXTRAS to try and somehow justify and qualify their allegation.

Once they make the allegation to the Police then anything can happen. The question again is do they know the person dealing with their case. Many know specialist units exist - so do they seek out those coppers who would be particularly kind to them???? the bent ones or simply those best trained to help them win.

Once it gets to CPS then the fun starts, POlice know CPS and know the allocated lawyers for the CPS it then becomes a team effort with the Police having already collected enough "evidence" statements to enable them to move forwards.

Once it gets to trial stage collusion between CRown and Defence means many of the case details that could threaten the Crown case is lost and edited out. Once on trial the minimum amount of questions are asked by both sides and often Defence support the crown - certainly make little effort to put the defences side across (their clients).

Therefore a Jury is left thinking the Police did their job and that the questions in court covered all evidence and that the case was fully presented. The problems are simple to understand once you know the workings of the state judicial - corrupt and full of collusion.

HOwever once convicted trying to get an appeal is almost impossible. Your original Barrister wont admit they are bent so refused to lodge your appeal and other Solicitors are aware of what some do but wont spill the beans and name and shame and dare not rock the boat by themselves lodging on behalf of the convicted their appeal - on the grounds of evidence being misrepresented. Its a closed shop and self regulated - there all the law there above the law.

This leaves the convicted in no mans land whilst the criminals and guilty enjoy the rewards of their devious actions and financial benefits.

The problem is quite simple the judicial has a financial interest in these cases and the CRown love them cos they can build up their case knowing many Legal Aid Barristers are on their side - many follow orders and its in their future and career interests to play the CRowns game.

Justice and the TRuth???? Means nothing in the English courts when none of the parties who matter dont care about those on trial but only their own personal interests and future promotion prospects !!

So for the many on here whom were genuinely assaulted its hard to imagine anyone being falsely and wrongfully convicted - but then there not the deviant ones who made their story up and they didnt seek out the specialists police units or a friendly copper to help them. So its a world apart from those on the other side.

A Bent copper a bent accuser all seeking a win therefore all with a deviant mind. Or an assaulted victim and a copper who tries to find evidence to make sure its true and not false without manipulating witnesses and evidence ?? Im sure anyone who deals with these cases would understand and recognise this pattern as against an honest fair and open case investigation and trial !! You couldnt get 2 more different investigations and approach if you tried the contrasts are there for all to see.

The Jersey trials are a good example where the Crown throw anything and every accusation at the jury but the real crimes are "subjective with no evidence", they create a vision of deviant behavour - all too easy to do if the evidence is prepared properly to support the crown and accuser.

We live in a very dangerous country where anyone could be accused and be convicted, even those honest amoungst you who have been raped or assaulated could be a target !! after all you are not the sort to attack and accuse just anyone who is innocent - NO, BUT FALSE ACCUSERS ARE !!!!

[Not Guilty]

Life after false allegation

I am probably in the most unenviable position, having arrested people and having been arrested - having investigated false complaints and having one made against me. Now I can safely say in my matter, the weirdest part of all was the jury found there was consent and consent was withdrawn. But then how is it that the complainant stated there was no consent at all at any time. So the jury believed me when I said there was consent but for the life of me, no one can explain when, where and how consent was withdrawn as that was not her evidence. So how did I get convicted - simple - because no one will believe, not even in the face of evidence that shows she had lied, that some one will lie - that is the one thing that I did not hammer home and should have. But the solicitior informed me that if I attack the alleged victim, I will look bad to the jury - sorry, but I already looked bad to the jury because I had been arrested and charged - now standing before them charged with an offence that people find reprehensible. So for god's sake, if any of you can listen, those who have to face court, listen now, MOTIVE MOTIVE MOTIVE - find it, investigated it, leave no stone unturned. This incident happened eight years ago, I still have nightmares, still cannot go into places like service stations or shops when there is a lone female for fear she will make an allegation. Life after an allegation, you live in constant fear, you are scared 24/7 because it has happened once before, you know lies put you away, you are waiting for someone to do it again. And why, because it was so easy for the woman in my matter to lie and easy for her to say I did something to her and easy for a Court to accept there was consent and it was withdrawn even though that was not the Crowns case, see my point, things can be changed, can be explained, can be thrown out - once a conviction is recorded, you have more chances of walking on water than getting it overturned. So fight and don't leave any stone unturned. Don't sit back and hope that a jury will see through lies. In my matter, there were ten different documented versions and she got caught out that many times - it did not matter. It matters to no one, evidence can be changed testimony altered, victims coached prior to giving their evidence. Fight like there is no tomorrow, because if you don't your tomorrow could end up behind bars.

[Rights Fighter]

Sounds like a perverse verdict - ask your sol/barrister if they intend to appeal the conviction on that ground.

[Not Guilty]

Appeal was dismissed.

Hi Rights Fighter,
They did appeal - it was thrown out. I submitted a review of conviction to the NSW Supreme Court, I have listed in the threads previously all of the evidence I placed forward but in the end nothing I did or put forward made a scrap of difference - showed how much this woman lied, made no difference, even to the point where the Crown even conceded that I did not injure her, that made no difference. I produced expert evidence from Criminal Profiler who showed this was a false complaint and forensically disected all of the evidence for the court - went nowhere.
But in my matter, I said it was consent, she said there was no consent, the jury found there was consent and it was withdrawn. WHEN WAS IT WITHDRAWN. What part of the evidence, because no one has been able to yet show that proposition. How can a woman state she was injured, then have the Crown say that the injuries cannot be excluded as having been occasioned at some other time other than the assault - a woman who stated she could not dance because of the injuries then be seen dirty dancing, touching other mens bodies on a stage in front of over 100 people then have her evidence of complaint accepted - easy. Because if the Court start overturning convictions, that would show that women do make false complaints, that would stop women coming forward because they would 'fear' they would be persecuted. You can see it all now.
But one thing I have lost is my name. This stain is on me for the rest of my life and how do you remove it? I fought, It took me fours years to place an application for a review of conviction and over 1000 pages of submission to be told that nothing I found made a scrap of difference. So how do you replace your name - how do you get back what makes you who you are? Your name. My favourite quote can be found in "The Crucible."
It truly sums up my fears about loosing my name:my identity.
"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!"

[frankgallagherwasere]

You suffer what we all suffer each and every day, cheated by the state for its own self interest and not a single consideration for the truth and justice and the damage it does to those whom it chooses as its victim. The criminals are not always those on trial or those facing conviction, thats just how they want it to appear.

There are only a few countries in the world where the judicial is above the law and literally untouchable and we each live in one of them. The UK judicial is fundamentally corrupt to its core and no matter what anyone else things and says, there is simply too many cases to prove with evidence rather than the odd incompetent and inexperienced lawyer.

If they want us to be criminals maybe its about time we acted and lived upto its title and behaved like on, of course thats exactly what they hope so they can bang us all up again and keep up out of mind and sight. Some get annoyed because of the continuous repetitive rants of the innocent, but then there not in our shoes, they have no real way of understanding only sympathising. All we can do is stand strong and defend our corner as best we can, and try and find others in a similar position to prove its collusion from within and not just a one off situation.

In the UK there are literally thousands in the same boat Im sure where you are its not much better, you need to get organised and fight in numbers as this gives everyone the strength to fight on for justice !!

[Saffron]

The Crucible is an excellent example of what has happened to so many of us, victims of false allegations and survivors of genuine assaults. I read that play many years ago and it left a deep impression on me....such injustices. Never thought I would be living one.

[frankgallagherwasere]

If the judicial just kept to the facts and not fiction we would see a level playing field, unfortunately they would prefer to play games with each other in court, its sharing the spoils and not truth and justice.

Im all for stitching up true criminals but lets gets the facts straight and on the table for all too see, not hiding withheld and manipulated before it even gets to a jury. I got kicked cos I kicked off for someone who did wrong and I dont apologise, if people want to assault physically someone else they should answer to society as a whole. Unfortunately, we now have a situation where no one trusts our legal systems and things will only be sorted out outside the law.

That creates a state of anarchy but then maybe thats what the system wants as it would always be there to pick the pieces up afterwards?? None of it makes sense to me, why cant they just all follow the same procedures (as written in statute) and then none of us could complain????????? elementary my Dear Watson

[Not Guilty]

Deemed Gulty

The problem of course is that when you are found guilty by a "jury of your peers" i.e 12 people that never met you, don't know you but have that preconception that a woman could not be low enough to lie about such a despicable act - they judge you. But then the Courts will not intervene in a jury verdict unless they have faced with an overwhelming miscarriage of justice - now I can only have the stain removed from me when the woman who made the allegation confesses she lied - what are the chances. I do have a small consolation - I have trained literally thousands of police all mof whom hold me in high regard, but also know this woman. Now sadly this woman is known as a woman of "loose morals" even after this event. Now I would dearly love to assasinate this womans character, name her etc, but all I can say is that the police treat her persona non grata - and has been austracised as the evidence that I have placed forward to the NSW Supreme Court is public domain, she cant stop that and they have read for themselves the lies she told, plus the people that where there also have had their say - so she sold me down the river to protect her job as a police officer - and is now being treated as a leper because of what she did not keep her job - some form of justice - but none for me.