Rape? or an unpleasant sexual encounter?

[diana_holbourn]

I wonder if a good tactic to use in court would be for the person being cross-examined to continually ask the lawyer, "Please can you tell me the relevance of this question?" instead of answering it directly. I think the purpose of a lot of questions is to discredit the person being cross-examined, to make the jury think they're the kind of person who could have committed an offence like that, or who might have consented to it. If the lawyer gave explanations as to why they were asking the questions, and then the person being cross-examined asked follow-up questions about what baring that had on the incident that took place, if cleverly done, it may be that in some cases, the lawyers would end up being the ones answering the questions.

[utterlydestroyed]

Good Grief.


I never denied sex took place.
My accuser gave consent in front of three other witnesses, but that meant nothing to the police!!!
The witnesses willingly made statements to my solicitor (because police REFUSED to interview them).
The police poked at condoms used (discarded in a bedside bin) during the police search of my home...and then ignored them! (The condoms handed (in sterile sealed bags) to my solicitor as soon as I was released from 16 hours detention and interregation).
Another independent witness came forward to inform us (he made a statement to my solicitor) that the accuser had ADMITTED to him it was a false allegation during a telephone conversation.
We were then informed that the accuser withdrew their allegation from police within two weeks.
Then to top it all we actually have text messeges from the accuser appologising and admitting it was a false allegation.

Police were informed of ALL of the above, yet....

...STILL the police continued to go for a prosecution against me on a false allegation for months and months before they finalised the case NFA.

The police ARE fully aware that it was a false allegation, by the sheer volume of physical & material evidence, numerous WITNESSES and the confession of the accuser, but yet still CHOOSE NOT to prosecute this CRIMINAL.

That is why I personally now doubt and question the safety of EVERY rape conviction I hear about, knowing as I do now the depth of corruption & dishonesty operative within the police.

NB: I have learned that my accuser has caused trouble for a couple 'he' has sexually become involved with, and worryingly, he is now aware of the potential RICH financial rewards of the criminal compensation scheme intended for (REAL) rape victims.

It is only a question of time before this vile person makes ANOTHER false rape allegation in an attempt for financial gain, destroying God knows how many peoples lives in the process...and with the complete blessing of the police!

[MGR]

IMaybe this is because they were being unfaithful to a partner, or were very drunk, and it seemed like a good idea at the time. I think most women today have experienced this kind of feeling, and it is not pleasant.

However, there are some who exonerate themselves of responsibility by reclassifying it in their heads as being non-consensual.

Just for clarity; if a woman was too drunk to consent and the man was able to determine this, then it is rape.

[Saffron]

Just for clarity; if a woman was too drunk to consent and the man was able to determine this, then it is rape.

I agree that if a woman is too drunk to give consent, or if she is unconscious, then of course it is rape. but my problem is HOW drunk do you have to be to be defined as "too drunk?" technically speaking, after a pint of lager you are not allowed to drive a car, because your judgement and reactions are impaired.

as i said, we all do things when drunk that we would never consider in sobriety. many a coupling has taken place when both the man and the woman have been drunk, but it has still been consensual. maybe in the cold light of day they regret the encounter, and know that they would never have done it sober, but my point is that at the time, the sex was consensual.

[Rights Fighter]

Ye gods and little fishes! Many moons ago (in the 70's and early 80's) I was what might be considered "flighty!"

On more than one occasion I woke up with some bloke next to me with no recollection of who he was or how he got there and thought "oh no, not again!"

I would never, ever in a month of Sundays cry "rape" on that situation because I chose to go out, I chose to get pissed, and knowing me I agreed for him to come back with me.

Having no memory of what occurred does not mean that I was raped.

I hold great store in "personal responsibility".

If I go out dressed provocatively (or even when I have not) and I get so pissed that I invite somebody back (or allow them back) to my place then that is my own personal responsibility.

If sex occurred then that is my responsibility. Note I don't use the word "fault" but "responsibility".

I really don't know what happened in your situation MGR and I have no intention of judging what went on in your case because I don't know.

But what I DO know is that drunken sex does happen. It doesn't mean that this was rape - more often than not it's regret. Regret is a terrible thing when it puts somebody away for many years and then labels that person for the rest of their life when all that has occurred is "drunken sex".

[MGR]

That wasn't my point. I wasn't saying that drunken sex was rape, what I was saying was if a woman is so drunk that she cannot consent, it is rape. There is a difference and I was trying to clarify the law. Also what you wear has no bearing on rape. Dressing provocatively should not be enticement to be raped.

What would you think if you saw some woman who was out on a Christmas night out, could barely walk being taken back home by a man who is sober enough to realise she's out of it? If she then blacks out and he rapes her, is that her fault? My argument is no decent man would think that was acceptable.

As I said - I'm just pointing out some of the arguments which are in the media at the moment. It is frightening how much blame people put on women for being raped. Judges and barristers have been trained to recognise what is and what isn't rape but juries have not as they are part of the general public. As I posted recently in a different thread, there are widely held beliefs that if a woman is drunk, dressed provocatively, has had several sexual partners that she is at least partially responsible for being raped.

I wanted to clarify the law to try and make people understand here that this is wrong (and the law agrees). I don't want an innocent man to be locked up any more than anyone else but my point is while all these myths are being pervaded, some men who are actually guilty of rape will think in their own minds that they are innocent and juries will acquit men who are guilty.

[Saffron]

being so out of it that you can't stand up, and wearing provocative clothing are of course not an invitation to be raped. In an ideal world women should be allowed to go wherever they want, wearing whatever they want, in whatever state they want.

but the real world isn't like that. I'm not saying for one second that if i wear a short skirt and get drunk, i am asking to be raped. however, i do think that we should all take a bit more responsibility for our own safety. if i am staggering drunk around Kings Cross at 1am with money hanging out of my pocket, i am not taking my personal safety very seriously, am I? if i go out for the weekend and leave my house unlocked, i am not taking the threat of burglary very seriously, am i? of course, burglary and mugging are still wrong, but would i be blamed for leaving my house unlocked? my insurance company would certainly think so.

but just to throw the cat among the pigeons for a moment, here is a scenario for you:

once, for my job, i had to go to visit a building site. duly togged up in my hard hat and steel toe-capped boots, i was being shown around a selection of half-finished houses. there was myself and the site manager (a man) making a snagging list. suddenly, half way round, i realised i was alone in a half-finished house with a man i had known for all of 10 minutes. i realised i had put myself in danger. i made my excuses and left. the next time i needed to do this, i made sure someone else was with me.

another one: after a night out at the pub shortly after starting my new job, i was alone with a male colleague, and we were both extremely drunk. he said i could kip at his flat if i wanted to. i was sorely tempted, mainly because it was a long train journey for me to get home, and seeing as i didn't find him remotely attractive, i assumed it would be safe to go to his flat, confident that i wouldn't be persuaded into bed. then i thought about it, and realised that even if this man's intentions were honourable, it would still be a stupid thing to do. i got the crowded train home.

I am not saying that it would have been my fault if i had gone to his flat, fallen asleep, and woken up to find him having sex with me. i am just saying that i realised it would be a foolish thing to do, and so opted to take the long journey home instead.

Of course it is no fault of the victim if they make unwise choices. but perhaps a bit more awareness would prevent these kind of things happening?

there is currently an advertising campaign, advising men to make sure they have coherent consent before indulging in casual sex. fair enough. it protects both parties. but maybe there should be a similar campaign advising women to make sure that they maintain some of personal safety.

[Saffron]

and just in response to RF's and MGR's posts:

I used to share a flat with 2 male friends. frequently they used to invite their mates back to stay, and as i had the only double room, some of them used to kip in my bed. i had no objection to this, as i was young and foolish, and always wore pyjamas. on one occasion i had gone to bed alone, and woke up to find a friend of my flatmates' next to me in bed! (I had met him several times, and he was a nice bloke.) i looked at him and said "(name) what are you doing here?" He blearily opened one eye and said "oh, sorry. the sofa was taken and P and J said you wouldn't mind."

I didn't mind. I assumed he had behaved in a gentlemanly fashion, and so he had. However, with hindsight, it was a monumentally stupid thing for him to do!

[MGR]

There's not much point really in me posting this because I'm aware that not many people here will agree with me.

People leave their doors unlocked every day.

Women are alone with men every day.

People get drunk every day.

People make "stupid" decisions every day.

Getting raped is a f*cking big consequence to any of these actions.

I'm sorry if I seem angry but well I am. The reason is it is beliefs like this that make loads of rape victims on other forums blame themselves for being raped. They have been (or are) suicidal. They often self harm because they hate themselves. These opinions from someone else is like a punch in the gut. As you said Saffron; you'd found yourself in some of these situations already. It can happen to anyone. I was raped outside my back door and a few years later a boyfriend raped me, even though we'd had sex that night, he felt fit to force himself on me. How are you meant to prevent that? A friend of mine was sexually assaulted on a bus with people around her. How was she meant to prevent that?

When will people stop blaming women for being raped? Do you blame murder victims as much? If you get burgled and don't have 4 locks on your door like I do so I can sleep at night, is it your fault?

Why are people so hard on women who have suffered so, so much.

I have to go. Being on this site is just upsetting me. I should never have come back but I saw a story from someone who obviously needed help and I was the only person to reply to her.

[Saffron]

Look, MGR, I never meant to upset you. the point if my previous post was to illustrate that it was as stupid for the bloke to get into my bed while i was asleep as it was for me to allow it. blokes are putting themselves at risk of a false allegation in the same way that women sometimes put themselves at risk of being raped. i agree that making a stupid decision is not an "invitation" to get raped, but neither is it an invitation for someone to be falsely accused. my husband is now so afraid of it happening again that he won't allow himself to be alone in the same room as another woman, he picks up his cigarette butts wherever he goes so that his DNA isn't inadvertently found at the scene of a crime, and won't even pick our son up from a friend's house in case it means being left alone with another woman.

I am all for reasonable debate. My intention was never to upset you, and i apologise if i have. but please understand that someone i love has suffered post traumatic stress disorder, acute distress, has self-harmed, and been sent to prison because someone did lie about being raped. in the same way as you are hurting, so is the person I love.

[Unregistered]

please understand that someone i love has suffered post traumatic stress disorder, acute distress, has self-harmed.

I agree with MGR. You can't say that the law is too much in favour of the victim when only about 1 in 20 see any justice.

Look at suicide rates of rape victims. I tried to kill myself.

[utterlydestroyed]

I agree with MGR. You can't say that the law is too much in favour of the victim when only about 1 in 20 see any justice.

Look at suicide rates of rape victims. I tried to kill myself.

....and I tried to kill myself when falsely accused!

[mol12]

I am all for reasonable debate

"my husband is now so afraid of it happening again that he won't allow himself to be alone in the same room as another woman, he picks up his cigarette butts wherever he goes so that his DNA isn't inadvertently found at the scene of a crime, and won't even pick our son up from a friend's house in case it means being left alone with another woman.

I am all for reasonable debate. My intention was never to upset you, and i apologise if i have. but please understand that someone i love has suffered post traumatic stress disorder, acute distress, has self-harmed, and been sent to prison because someone did lie about being raped. in the same way as you are hurting, so is the person I love."

I know what he is going through,my wife knows what you are going through(saffron)

debate not threats,we have to take the bull by the horns, our feelings have to be put to one side if we want to sort it out

[Rights Fighter]

Unregistred said:

"....and I tried to kill myself when falsely accused!"

The next time anyone who is protesting their innocence kills themselves and the headlines scream "he couldn't face the shame so the coward killed himself" or "pervert commits suicide rather than face his victim in court".....please remember that it's likely that the person protesting his innocence could well be exactly that, and he can't face the thought of going to prison an innocent man.

In the 7 years I've been supporting the falsely accused I've known so many who have tried to kill themselves, (some have succeeded) because they know they are likely to be convicted - on the strength of the accuser knowing that there is absolutely no other evidence. If this is a case that goes back several years then he has little chance of providing an alibi. If he does provide an alibi the Crown more often than not change the date of the alleged assaults in order to secure a conviction - and guess what - THIS IS PERFECTLY LEGAL!

I would venture to suggest that for every person who has really been raped, and tried to kill themselves, there will be a man who has tried to kill himself due to false allegations.

It might interest the sceptics that many people who are active in supporting the falsely accused have suffered some sort of sexual attack during their lives. However, we have our blinkers off and can see through the lies, discrepancies and inconsistencies.

I hope to God above that unregistered never has to go through the trauma of a loved one being falsely accused and wrongly convicted and all that goes with it. One of my group members had to move about 7 times in three years because of it.

[utterlydestroyed]

Sincere round of applause for 'rights fighter'!