what to do

[m_t_w_t_f_s_s]

Just to clarify before I begin; I have not been accused of anything in any formal way.

My problem is that a girl (The Girl) I have only met in passing is going around the local club/bar scene telling any girl that will listen that I tried to rape her sister (The Sister), which is of course, compelte bollox.

A little backstory:

The girl in question went to school with a very good female friend of mine (The Friend), so while I have never formally met her, I do know of her, as The Friend has recounted on numerous occasions all of the psychotic things The Girl does (self abuse, suicide attempts, general mental instability etc...).

On the night in question The Friend was moving away for a year, so we had gone out to a club to see her off. My memory of the specifics gets a little hazy here, as we were all very very drunk that night. What I do remember is that The Sister, The Friend, and myself were talking by the bar, and The Sister turns to The Friend and starts to full on kiss her for a good couple of minutes, everyone around is turning and looking as two hot girls are kissing. When they're done, without saying a word, The Sister turns and starts to kiss me. Looking back, not pushing her away was my first mistake of the night, but how many single men honestly would have?

Some time passes, and I think The Sister and I may have kissed a couple of times since, but nothing serious, at this point The Friend has to go home as she is leaving the following day, so we say our goodbyes and she leaves. I decide to stay with The Sister as I have seen a couple of guys from my band in the club, so I can always chill with them later. This is mistake number 2.

The Sister and I decide to go outside for a cigarette. We kiss a couple of times outside in the smokers area, run into some friends of mine who are also out there, then head back inside. Some more time passes (maybe 15mins, maybe 30, the club was close to closing when The Friend left anyway, so it can't have been long), and The Sister decides she's drunk too much and is going to be sick, but doesn't want to be thrown out, so we head out of the front of the club and next to a railway bridge about 20/30 feet from the club door, where she is promptly sick. This is mistake number 3.

As we are walking back to the club The Girl (psycho) spots us from the smokers area, and starts going ape **** at The Sister. Turns out she has a boyfriend who isn't there tonight, so really shouldn't have been doing the things she had all night (I wasn't the first nor last she had latched onto that evening). At this point I've started to sober up a little, and realise that The Sister is far too drunk to take any of this in, and The Girl turns her attention to me, and again, starts to yell at me, telling me in no uncertain terms, to **** off and leave her sister alone. I am not one for confrontation, and I'm not in the mood for crazy, so I spot one of The Sister's friends, so I make sure she is ok, then take her over to her friend and ask him to look after her. At this point, the club is closing and won't let me back in, so I get in a taxi and go home. A little worse for wear, feeling **** about being yelled at (I really don't like confrontation, even when I've done nothing bad), and generally wishing the whole thing hadn't happened.

A few months pass, and I gradually forget that the night even happened. I don't see either of them in the various bars or clubs we frequent in this time, which is a little odd, but not unheard of. Eventually, about 6-8 months later I am outside a different club in the smokers area and I spot The Girl, standing around with friends, with her back to me, and her head turned, just staring at me. A little un-nerving, but I know she is a little bit psycho and our previous meeting didn't end well, so I brush it off and go inside.

Later that night I spot The Girl again, inside, staring at me, she then whispers into her friends ear (something that is soon to become a recurring theme), I walk of, fairly unphased. The next thing I know I'm heading to the dancefloor with some friends and a girl taps me on the shoulder, I don't recognise her at first, and bend down to hear what she has to say, she whispers into my ear "try not to rape anyone tonight". I figure she has me confused with someone else and continue to follow my friends onto the dancefloor. From the dancefloor I see this girl walk back to The Girl, and a picture starts to build in my mind of what actually just happened. It ruined that night for me, but I got over it. I hadn't seen her for months, I probably wouldn't again. I was wrong. The Girl started to turn up at every bar and club I was at, every week. I'd leave one place for another and she would turn up there an hour later, always doing the same thing, staring at me and whispering into various girls ears. I could generally deal with this, it bothered me quite a lot, but she couldn't get at anyone who knew me or I cared about, so it didn't really affect me, it was a silly little game I was sure she'd get tired of.

Last night, for me, was the breaking point. There is a girl I met through The Friend, who also went to school with The Girl and The Sister, who I quite like. She has been away studying her last year at University pretty much since I met her, so any form of relationship was out of the question, however, we have been keeping in touch pretty much every couple of days, and have been getting on pretty well. This weekend, she was home, I thought she was still on holiday, as she went away last week, however last night I saw her out at a club with The Girl and The Sister (the first time I've seen The Sister since that night). Alarm bells go off in my head and I realise what's going to happen if The Girl see's me.

Fortunatly the night seems to go ok, The Girl doesn't seem to have seen me yet and I've managed to keep out of her way. There is a nagging in the back of my mind that she's already stuck her dagger in and that's why I've not run into either of them, but I put it to one side and try to enjoy the night with my friends.

Towards the end of the night the girl I like suddenly appears infront of me with a drink, hands it to me and say's hi. I get a huge wave of releaf, she's still talking to me, The Girl hasn't managed to poison her yet. I lookup and see The Girl, staring at us. I hand the drink back to the girl I like, just as The Girl grabs her arm and starts to pull her back. I whisper into her ear, "I don't think your friend likes me very much, you better go". She says "Oh, you've met her then". I reply "unfortunately".

I see The Girl whispering to the girl i like, but the girl i like is still looking at me and smiling. She shugs her shoulders and laughs a little. I look away as I don't want to see the look on her face change when she hear's that one 4 letter word. I leave the club not long afterwards and head to an after hours bar I know. Destroyed.

As I am leaving the after hours bar with my friends, roughly an hour later, I see The Girl, walking towards it with the girl I like. The girl I like doesn't spot me, but The Girl does. She stares. I'm a little nervous at first, expecting her to do or say something; I don't know why, she never has, she just spreads rumors. I suddenly start laughing at her and just shake my head; I don't know what else to do. I get into a taxi with my friends and go home.

What I want to know, is what can I do to stop this? Can you have someone arrested for slander or do you have to sue them? Is there anything to stop them carrying on once they're charged/I win? Can I have her slapped with a restraining order so she can't be anywhere I am? Is there such a crime as defamation of character? What are my options? And if I do go down the law route, what is to stop The Girl and The Sister turning the tables and accusing me, ending up in my arrest?

[quinnb]

yes u could I expect go down a legal route - but that costs lots of money would be my bet!
Best thing to do is write it off 2 experience - bad luck mate all single men who are on the "scene" will have girls that like them and girls that don't
From what I gather you don't see this girl very often which is a bonus and if you do see her in a club/pub - hold your head up high ignore her or just simply leave and go somewhere else.
Tell you mates to avoid her like the plague and in time it will all calm down.

[lemming]

There is absolutely nothing to stop them turning the tables on you. Even if you go to the police and explain the situation all it takes is a complaint from the Sister herself or more likely via a third party (the Girl) and you will be arrested and investigated for rape/attempted rape (I'm not clear on what you're accused of/how exaggerated the story will become given time). All places keep CCTV footage for a minimum of 30 days, a few for up to a year. I'd be surprised if any footage still exists for the night in question - this is a very bad thing since no evidence is required to support the girl's story.

Nor is it recommended to speak to the Sister (opens you up to accusations of intimidation), but what is her version of events? Did she tell her sister she was assaulted, or can't remember, or is the Sister doing this off her own back? It's a handy story to tell her boyfriend, dontcha think? I wasn't cheating on you/flirting - I was taken advantage of! Regardless, I'd imagine the Girl would not admit after so long that nothing happened, and would make a statement to the police if pressed into it.

I would gather all evidence supporting you (names of witnesses, witness statements inc both girls' behaviour since the 'event', text messages, dates, times and places, as much detail as you can remember), keep that evidence safe and forget about it.

It's a very bad idea to be in the same place as these girls - don't go to the same places as them and if you do end up in the same room f*ck off asap with dignity. It sounds like you being around antagonises the Girl which, unfair though it may be, could well be a major problem for you in the long run.

Nothing will protect you if a complaint is made to the police - nothing at all. So hopefully she'll forget about you once the next major life issue crops up for her. Keep your ear to the ground for anything useful eg have the sisters made similar complaints against anyone else; has the Sister denied anything happened etc? Otherwise forget it and move on with your life like your doing, it's a hell of a leap to make from spreading rumours to going to the police for most people, so once you've done what you can to prepare yourself put it out of your mind.

You probably won't see it coming so bear in mind the below, just in case the worst happens:

Paranoia is sanity, so if you are arrested and questioned bear in mind the best advice is to always have a solicitor present, for preference get the number NOW of someone with experience in rape cases (the duty solicitor is normally there for people who've committed driving offences), and most people on this forum recommend a 'no comment' interview. Hopefully the sol could get a rundown of what specifically you're accused off (eg spiking her drink?). I did none of those things and was never even charged so don't take this as read, it's just best practice. Also bear in mind the police will seize your mobile and computer if arrested so keep printed copies of anything important to you - you'll be released on bail for months. The police have targets to meet and are not interested in the truth, just building a case.

Don't be freaked out by this - at the moment it's just gossip which your friends don't believe, and that's probably all it will ever be. As Quinnb says, avoid her like the plague and put it down to experience - very few people are mental cases (the trick is telling the difference).

[RFLH]

what lemming said!!!

[Saffron]

Well said Lemming!

[m_t_w_t_f_s_s]

There is absolutely nothing to stop them turning the tables on you. Even if you go to the police and explain the situation all it takes is a complaint from the Sister herself or more likely via a third party (the Girl) and you will be arrested and investigated for rape/attempted rape (I'm not clear on what you're accused of/how exaggerated the story will become given time). All places keep CCTV footage for a minimum of 30 days, a few for up to a year. I'd be surprised if any footage still exists for the night in question - this is a very bad thing since no evidence is required to support the girl's story.

Nor is it recommended to speak to the Sister (opens you up to accusations of intimidation), but what is her version of events? Did she tell her sister she was assaulted, or can't remember, or is the Sister doing this off her own back? It's a handy story to tell her boyfriend, dontcha think? I wasn't cheating on you/flirting - I was taken advantage of! Regardless, I'd imagine the Girl would not admit after so long that nothing happened, and would make a statement to the police if pressed into it.

I would gather all evidence supporting you (names of witnesses, witness statements inc both girls' behaviour since the 'event', text messages, dates, times and places, as much detail as you can remember), keep that evidence safe and forget about it.

It's a very bad idea to be in the same place as these girls - don't go to the same places as them and if you do end up in the same room f*ck off asap with dignity. It sounds like you being around antagonises the Girl which, unfair though it may be, could well be a major problem for you in the long run.

Nothing will protect you if a complaint is made to the police - nothing at all. So hopefully she'll forget about you once the next major life issue crops up for her. Keep your ear to the ground for anything useful eg have the sisters made similar complaints against anyone else; has the Sister denied anything happened etc? Otherwise forget it and move on with your life like your doing, it's a hell of a leap to make from spreading rumours to going to the police for most people, so once you've done what you can to prepare yourself put it out of your mind.

You probably won't see it coming so bear in mind the below, just in case the worst happens:

Paranoia is sanity, so if you are arrested and questioned bear in mind the best advice is to always have a solicitor present, for preference get the number NOW of someone with experience in rape cases (the duty solicitor is normally there for people who've committed driving offences), and most people on this forum recommend a 'no comment' interview. Hopefully the sol could get a rundown of what specifically you're accused off (eg spiking her drink?). I did none of those things and was never even charged so don't take this as read, it's just best practice. Also bear in mind the police will seize your mobile and computer if arrested so keep printed copies of anything important to you - you'll be released on bail for months. The police have targets to meet and are not interested in the truth, just building a case.

Don't be freaked out by this - at the moment it's just gossip which your friends don't believe, and that's probably all it will ever be. As Quinnb says, avoid her like the plague and put it down to experience - very few people are mental cases (the trick is telling the difference).

Thanks for that, The Friend has spoken to the girl I like, and apparently she didn't believe a word of it and tried to find me after I left to tell me. The Girl (psycho) is still only saying attempted to, I have no idea what The Sister is saying, if anything at all, everything I've heard has come from The Girl.

As much as it will suck, I guess just leaving anywhere I spot her is the best way forward. Unfortunately it has been the case lately that whenever I leave anywhere I spot her, she turns up at the new place in around an hour. If I didn't know better I'd say she was following me, but it's probably just co-incidence. Do you know of anywhere I can get the name and number of a good solicitor in my area, incase the worst does happen?

[Rights Fighter]

I would never say "give a no comment interview". What I would say is that you don't give alibi details as the police will tell the accuser who will then change her story.

If you give a no comment interview that is not on the advice of a legal rep then this will be used against you at trial, if it gets that far. I had to watch one of my own members get hammered at trial for doing a no comment interview, by prosecution, despite the fact that his legal advisor had advised him to do this. Unfortunately the defendant was scared shi*less so answered in an aggressive manner, which the jury did not like. So the fact that his legal rep had advised him to go no comment escaped the jury due to the aggressive responses.

[lemming]

Whoops (holds out wrist for slapping)! My mistake!

[quinnb]

I was advised by my solictior to give a no comment interview! which to me defeats the object of the caution that was given. It may harm your defence for something you later rely on in court! - uh I did not say anything your honour cuz my solicitor told me not to,

Rights fighter - Lemming etc etc you are really worrying me - I may think the police are useless and ****! - but not for one moment do I think they are capable or will frame somebody as u seem to be suggesting! - i.e you have an alibi so they tell the victim to change thier story so you no longer have one. Are the police really that bad in 21st century Britain?

[lemming]

Hmmm... I was treated very well by the police so no, my experience was not like that at all. I also think you'd have to be very unlucky to be 'framed' by the police in that sense of the word. A lot of people, however, seem to fall in-between the two extremes because they're just interested in charging you, and the easiest way to do that is with multiple charges, making the absolute most of the 'evidence' against you and so on. This is supported by the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the procedures for the CPS to charge and conduct the case against you, government targets for rape convictions and lobbying groups pressure. Lets take a few examples:

*police are trained to 'support' the victim. In reality this means their allegations are taken at face value, they can change their story - including dates and what sex acts took place - and it will be put down to trauma

*If they chose to retract their allegations the police will actively discourage it. Some cases have gone to court without the 'victims' support

*rape is a crime which normally happens in private. Thankfully this is acknowledged. Un-thankfully the way it's been acknowledged is to lower the burden of evidence to such a degree that no corrobarating evidence is required: no DNA or proof that sexual intercourse actually took place

*last year 5.6% of rape allegations ended in a conviction. No-one will deny that a lot of genuine rapes go unreported. The common statistic, plucked out of thin air I believe, is only 1 in 4 rapes are reported. So with that, rape conviction targets were set to placate people naturally outraged by these appalling figures.


The police have targets to meet, the CPS are bonused for convictions and NOBODY will get promoted for failing to resolve alleged 'crimes', especially when the 'victim' is able and willing to tell them the name and address of the 'criminal'. And who would lie about something like that? Oh there's also compensation for the 'victim', money that can be paid out without even the suspect being convicted.

Let me put it another way - if you were under pressure from your boss to make more sales... and he plonked every single lead in your lap... and the government changed the law so people don't have a choice other than to buy your product... and the government told you that every single lead, no matter how unlikely, MUST be followed up and have a lot of time and effort spent on it... and the general public were clamouring for you to make more sales... and the public, colleagues and everyone else kept telling you how morally right it was to make sales... you received training on how to sell better... once you'd made the sale it wasn't your problem if the buyer had any problems, especially when customer services make most of the complaints 'inadmissable'... and the best way to get payrises and promotions was to make more sales...

Well f*ck me you'd make more sales!!!

Look in the media: abuctions, sexual abuse, death... it's always the person closest who gets arrested and questioned. Mark Speight was arrested; the McGanns were arrested; any number of teachers and care-givers are arrested 20+ years after the alleged events. Why, because it makes the police look like they're doing something and it's easy! It's easy!!! They assume it's the person closest who's guilty, what do you think they make of someone who's been named by the victim?

The point made my Rights Fighter is that if you give the police proof of your innocence the more cynical ones will either: lose or ignore that evidence; cast doubt over the veracity of that evidence or go to the victim and see if perhaps they got the wrong date or mis-remembered the events. And the witness statement gets changed. And it's prefectly legal! What if you proved to the police that you didn't have a penis? Then it's possible the victim would change their story to you using your fingers instead!

Save any evidence for if and when you need it.

But that didn't happen in my case at all so it's not always like that (the police were professional and humane). There are good people with common sense out there!

I keep on saying paranoia is sanity. One wrong move and it could all go against you - the risks are too great and the stakes too high to put your trust in people who are tasked with building a case AGAINST you. Now that would be silly.

[Rights Fighter]

The "nice" DC in my friend Rob's case told him that if he had any evidence which would prove the accuser was lying then to hand it over. So he did -all 53 pages of it.

At appeal they claimed they were never given this paperwork - yet CPS had written to plod before appeal asking for it and police told CPS that they had "mislaid" it. How can they mislay something that they were never (allegedly) given? That's currently being dealt with at ECHR level.

I am working on a case right now where dates were changed due to alibi evidence. Just prior to trial the "victim" coincidently and very conveniently produces a new statement claiming to have been confused about the dates.

In one ongoing appeal police failed to put in helpful evidence that there was another person in the same house who had demonstrated an interest in child porn, into the "unused" bundle until after trial. Unused stuff from the Crown should be available to defence before the trial. This evidence is what is bringing about a hearing for appeal very soon.

The list is endless. Sorry!

[lemming]

And just in case you haven't figured it out yet... Rights Fighter only works on APPEALS. She sees the unfairness and horror of it all after JUSTICE has been seen to be done.

The police conducted their investigation. The Crown Prosecution Service decided to charge. The prosecution presented their evidence. The legal aid defence presented theirs. A jury of twelve people decided the defendant was guilty. The judge decided what the punishment was (lest I forget, there are PLENTY of sentencing 'guidelines' the judges must follow). These men spend months if not years of their lives on remand or in prison. An appeal is normally only allowed if fresh evidence is found, you can't argue that the jury got it wrong.

And yet compelling evidence is found to prove their innocence. In papers the police or CPS had knowledge of???

If released on appeal is there compensation? Does the 'victim' have to pay back their compensation or answer for their lies?

Take a guess.

If you think being innocent is your best protection you're well off the mark. It might be, but don't count on it. As an innocent man I was detained for 11 hours, intimately examined and questioned. On police bail for two months. My DNA is now on the national database. An enhanced criminal record check (used for anyone applying to work with young or vunerable people and plenty more jobs) will show forever more that I was suspected of rape. And I'm one of the lucky ones...

How many a**holes do you know who should be in jail but aren't? I could name a few... I'd be interested in seeing whether your case is 'No Further Action'-ed or 'No-crimed'.

[Rights Fighter]

And of course another very high hurdle to jump is the fact that CA do not like quashing convictions. One I have on the go, leave to appeal hearing was heard a fortnight ago. It was referred back to the full court for leave (again) because the two old farts who were deciding it were more interested in why the evidence I found was not produced at trial. The answer was that the barrister decided not to and the defendant did not know that it was relevant it ANYWAY!

The fact that the "new" evidence gives a very strong indication that the mother was lying through her teeth, together with other evidence found makes her completely unreliable, is neither here not there. They were more concerned about why it was not used at trial. The poor appellant now has to pay a large amount of money to undergo the indignity of an IQ test to prove he is/was not bright enough to "instruct" the barrister, despite the fact he had no idea about the evidence I found, just to satisfy the CA.

It's got sod all to do with how the defendant instructs the barrister - the barrister nine times out of ten will do as they damn well please anyway!

Further they spent ages waffling on about the McKenzie Friend (me) who had prepared the initial report and grounds, when standing before them was a barrister who had taken over from me!! It's completely and utterly bonkers!

In another case the accuser said at trial "when I was 13 in 1993, I babysat my abuser's son who was then 3 years old". (Note all the threes to help him remember). The youngest son was born in 1995. CA refused to consider this because "the birth certificate of the child was available at the time of trial and should have been produced and used at trial".

I read something in a newspaper today - The CA is not interested in factual points, only legal points. Says it all really.

Can you tell I'm getting a tad angry????????

[quinnb]

what is the difference between NFA and No crimed?
Also is there anyway I can find out when the results of the teeth implants come back??? - I think once they then find out the "thing" is lying there - should /could they then arrest her without having to go through my PC
I don't mind if they still want to - I have nothing on there of interest to them but - could she then be arrested to - as it is obvious she lied??? -so what I am trying to say is can we both be on bail - me for organising and her for perverting justice??? Until the results come bACK from my PC???

Are the police under any obligation to tell me the teeth implants results??? Can I make them - can my solictor make them - and then can I insist she gets nicked there and then???

Will they arrest her first - before clearing me offically or will they clear me first then nick her???? - any one got any ideas???

[lemming]

My knowledge is limited, i'm afraid. But I can assure you they will go through every bit of evidence, however long it takes. The police are in no rush, as you know, it's the conviction that counts, not public safety from a 'dangerous criminal'. The old adage there's no smoke without fire means that they may well search for other things to pin on you. I cursed myself for not having a computer when I was on bail and someone was kind enough to lend me their laptop - it took me a while to click onto the fact that the computer would have been seized as standard procedure anyway, even though there would have been no relation to the case. It would have just been extra ammunition if anything had been found on there!

When a case is NFA-ed that means that they didn't have enough evidence to continue. When a case is no-crimed that means they don't believe that any crime took place at all and nothing is put on your criminal record. It doesn't necessarily follow that the accuser's charged. The police will say they can normally come to that decision within the first week. A caution is a terrible thing to accept because you're admitting your guilt, but then no jail time though you are put on the sex offenders register - a small amount of innocent people might be talked into accepting that regardless but it's rarely offered in these cases. Generally speaking it's an indication they don't have enough evidence to charge you anyway. Being charged is the worst thing because you either walk out of the court a free man, or get bundled off to prison for years. Again innocent men have been talked into pleading guilty for lesser charges or a lesser sentence. Anyone who suggests that is not looking out for your best interests, by the way!
Will the evidence prove that you never pimped her out? Or will it just disprove the rape allegation? She may well have been mistaken about you selling DVDs and so they can't proceed, I don't see how you could ever prove you absolutely didn't!

You can never BOTH be on bail as the accused and the accuser, particularly given the way the odds are stacked against the accused. I did, however, see a documentary recently (on C4?) about some mental Danish woman, in England, who cried rape and while the police had the guy on bail shifted their focus from him onto her and eventually put her in prison - she'd accused countless men both in Denmark and England. The thing that stuck in my mind was the narrator saying 'police confirmed there would be no further action against the man'. Was that an unfortunate turn of phrase, or a direct quotation from the police? Poor old boy... Of course, given the outcome, the police WOULD say that they focused on her and not him - but maybe they just couldn't pin anything on him?

The police don't have to tell you anything. They don't even have to tell you they've decided to charge you until you turn up for bail weeks later. If your solicitor's savvy-ish and the OIC willing they can sometimes get info. My OIC kept both my sol and myself updated with: being forewarned I would be re-bailed; what the exact nature of the possible charge would be (an issue of consent, nothing more); when the case had been passed to the CPS and when the case had been NFA-ed. But they didn't have to tell us that, as far as I know. That's why I do worry that you might rub the police up the wrong way - the only damage would be to yourself whether keeping you in the dark during bail or something worse.

I know what we're saying is daaaaaaaaarrrrrkkkkkkkk, but it's best that you know the worst that could happen so that you can prepare yourself and avoid mistakes others have made. That's why you're here - but the problem is the vagaries of the system. There's no right or wrong way to do things because if they think your guilty, or they're chasing targets, or they just plain don't f*cking like you, or they're nasty... they'll find something. Even if the police think you're the best thing since sliced bread the CPS might not!

Yes she could be arrested IN THE END, but you don't get to decide what she's charged with, or even if she is charged.

Phew! I think we're there. Hopefully you'll realise from reading other threads what can go wrong and sometimes, what can go right. Do your own research and get anything of interest to your solicitor. They may not be that interested unless you're charged, by the way. Now is a good time to start looking for an ace sol who's got a good track record in defending this sort of thing and gives a sh*t.

And put it outta your head as much as you can after that. The idea of years in jail scared the bejeesus out of me (googling the web was not the best thing for my state of mind), once I'd gotten over the fact someone had called me a rapist and what the hell everyone else thought! My struggle was to function properly and stop panicking/bricking myself/sobbing uncontrollably while waiting, just waiting. I'd much rather have had your problem! Your confidence is admirable, put it to good use by having a good life and making sure you've done everything you can to prepare yourself if the worst happens. When you know the worst, and you have the knowledge, then that's more power to your elbow. From what you've said the police don't think there's any truth to it, and your MP and friends can make some noise whatever happens. You'll probably be in for a longer wait than you think...