FA In Scotland

[Scottishandscared]

Hello everyone. I'm so devastated to be here but unfortunately our family has been rocked by a false accusation of rape and other sexual assaults. My brother has been arrested and questioned with legal representation and a "no comment" interview.
I've read loads on this site and its been such an eye opener but it's difficult to relate to alot because we are in scotland and things are so different. I have obv researched the life out of scots law as much as I can but the info is really limited and hard to understand and vague. I was hoping someone with first hand experience could maybe help out? Everything just seems so messy. So far, my brother was arrested at home and taken to the police station. He was in custody for 5hours before he was given a solicitor and interviewed. He answered no comment to most but said he lost his nerve a couple of times and answered NO to some. The accusations have come from his ex girlfriend, the mother of his child, they date back 3 years to when they were last in contact. Since their split, my brother has got married and now has a newborn baby. Now these accusations have torn right through us all. The police have even taken a statement from his wife asking her if she was abused or felt forced in anyway!!! Ofcourse she said no!!
The FA says she was raped several times while they were together, bullied, punched and dropped of out the car in the middle of nowhere. She says he has naked pics of her and he pushed her to the ground after she refused sex. We haven't seen her statement obviously but this is what he has managed to gather from the interview. So now, he was charged with 1 account of conduct something or other but its not a sexual offence and all other accusations are "under investigation" (no charges/bail) he has no idea what this even means, his lawyer has tried to find out where the report is and what their plans are but can only be told the case is still open? Can anyone shed any light on this?
So the charge was apparantly to do with abusive text messages and they have his phone. But this isn't the same device or number he had 3 years ago but they still wanted it?
He was released in an undertaking for this charge ( I think this is bail in England?) To report to court on a certain date. He arrived met his lawyer then they were told to come back another day as they were not prepared. They went back on the new date and were told the same, go away and come back in 2 weeks. 2 weeks later they went and were eventually told to go home, they would be in touch and he wasnt to report in for the time being. Anyone understand how these things work?
So 10 weeks on there is no news. No idea what is happening or what to expect. They have his phone but didn't ask for anything else. What can they find from a fairly new phone that he didnt have when these apparent attacks happened? I HATE hat she has done this, I know whole heartedly its all malicious but it's not up to me how things go.
So that's my long rant if anyone has time to read it id appreciate any advice help anything. Thankyou

[Scottishandscared]

Edit

I'm just going to add dome more details to give a better idea. He split up with her because he wasn't in love with her. They didnt plan a child and he told her he would support the child completely but not in a relationship with her. She was obviously and understandably upset by this. Anyone would be. She told him never to contact her again and all the usual angry stuff like she wished he was dead. We all tried so hard to get contact with the child and eventually she agreed and allowed us to visit but she stopped that after a couple of meetings telling us all she hated us and my brother (dont blame her) and we were not family if we supported him in his new relationship. He tried the courts but can't afford the thousands of pounds it costs. We all write cards letters and buy gifts but she hasn't responded to any of us and nobody heard from her again until now. She never mentioned during this time any assault or the idea of an abusive relationship

[Peter1975]

Welcome to DM Scottish and scared.

What a muddle this all is.

I have occasionally tried to find an easy to follow guide to Scottish law but I'm sorry, it always seems like they are making it up as they go along to me... Hopefully our Scottish members will come in but until then, you'll have to put up with what I know, which shouldn't take long!


Ok, so arrest is much more common in Scotland and so is the no comment interview as it doesn't draw an adverse inference ( ie, your silence can't be used to suggest guilt to a jury as in E&W )

The chief difference is Scotland's unique requirement for two seperate pieces of corroborating evidence but beyond that, there are many different rules regarding admissibility of evidence and disclosure which I wouldn't like to delve into.

At a guess, I would say that the procurator fiscal (PF) isn't ready to present their case and the sheriff is giving them time to investigate further but who knows what they are playing at.

The general advice here remains the same though, Solicitor first, gather support from family and friends, write everything down in a timeline, stalk social media, give all evidence to your solicitor, avoid all contact with the accuser, stay sane!

[TerrifiedinScotland]

Hi Scottish and Scared

And hello from a fellow Scot - albeit very new to all this and very early on in the process about 2 months in) so probably not going to be able to guide you through any of the minutiae of the law - I'm still utterly perplexed by it all.

If it's any consolation the requirement for corroboration for each element of the charge means the key facts of the case need to be backed up by 2 sources, so that's what the police will be looking to undertake right now (through reviewing texts etc - albeit they may not exist on his newer phone). It's very positive he was at the interview with a solicitor and gave a no comment interview as anything he said in this interview can act as corroboration.

Was the solicitor of your choosing or a duty one?

[Scottishandscared]

Thank you both for your replies.

Hi Peter1975, thabks for your advice. Yes you are right in that arrest is as common as a telling off here in scotland almost everyone is arrested before ever entering a police station and there doesnt seem to be the need for reasonable suspicion which I believe is the case in the rest of the UK also no comment interviews are generally always advised by legal representation to avoid possible self incriminating.

Terrified in scotland, im sorry you find you here but hopefully we can help find some sense. The solicitor at the police station was a duty one but he has since found a more specialised criminal defence firm who have agreed to take him on. They have been chasing up the PF but haven't had any information back. At the moment its hard to stay positive when even the legal representation doesnt know if he is still on an undertaking (bail) for that one charge and wont be told about the other accusations (rape/assault/bodily harm) which there was no charge but further investigations needed.
Who decides there needs more? The CID or the PF?
What is more? They have her side of events, she has obviously given all the evidence she has so where does more come from? They either have enough or they dont?
Terrified in scotland where are you at in the ordeal, Have you been charged?

The corroborative evidence is difficult to understand and im not sure how it works in a rape case because there often is no evidence let alone 2 independent pieces. But then the same could be said for alot of crimes.

I cant see past this nightmare and looking around it seems we have such a long wait ahead. It's the not knowing.

[TerrifiedinScotland]

Good news on the specialist solicitor, from what I gather that's key. Just do some due diligence and ensure they're well regarded in this respect as safe to say that decision is one of the most important decisions you'll make if you face the prospect of this going any further. It's a bit frustrating not knowing what his current status is, I find it very peculiar that the police can't answer that question, either you're on bail or you're not

From what I gather the initial stage is often a long drawn out process as the police gather as much evidence as possible to determine whether there is a case to answer. If so, The PF would then decide on the strength of that evidence whether there is enough to realistically convict someone in a court when all the evidence is presented.

I'm actually very early, I was asked to attend an informal interview and then released without any form of charge or bail whilst they make further enquiries i.e. awaiting DNA results coming back. My situation was what seems to be horribly common place, a one night stand which was perfectly normal and amicable that ended up in me being at an interview a few days later (turns out she was married, which she lied about on the night). I've been told to expect nothing until after xmas as I won't be deemed a priority. Tell my brain that!

[Scottishandscared]

I have just had a read of your own thread terrified in scotland, im so sorry that this has happened to you. Your situation seems all too common with the one night stand. Regret is never a reason to accuse someone of such a horrific crime but it's terrifying just how easy it is to get a case up and running.
I've seen a few people mention they were "volunteer for an interview" are u aware of why some are going for an informal while others are arrested?

One thing we don't know is when the accusations were made, im presuming very soon before the police came knocking. Am I right in thinking this or would there have been investigations ongoing before hand?

I hope you have lots of support around you.

Does anyone find it strange that they took a statement from his wife describing their relationship or is this normal practice?

One thing keeping me positive is that it's much harder to lie consistently than it is to tell the truth, the will have to slip up somewhere and our defenses will hopefully find all these holes.

[Casehardened]

Does anyone find it strange that they took a statement from his wife describing their relationship or is this normal practice?

One thing keeping me positive is that it's much harder to lie consistently than it is to tell the truth, the will have to slip up somewhere and our defenses will hopefully find all these holes.

It's sometimes helpful to look at this from the police's viewpoint and I've got a link somewhere* that I dig out from time to time that indicates they also take a jaundiced view of these 'revenge' accusations.

However they must also consider that they could be dealing with a 'genuine' offender who usually exhibits a pattern of behaviour and the easiest way to check this is to investigate his other relationships and his wife just happened to be the nearest; if he wasn't married they may well then have asked previous ex's.


* http://www.angryharry.com/esOneThird...pists.htm?note

(the quote from a then-serving English police officer..wikipedia has an entry for him...is the second piece on the page)

[Scottishandscared]

Casehardened
Thankyou for your reply. I've had a read of the link you sent, it certainly is surprising yet oddly refreshing to read a perspective that isn't a "man hunt"
Any research ive come across always ends in " woman never lie, wouldn't go through he hassle and men are predators" type thing. It's terrifying to see that view of so many.
I suppose police and all involved are still human.

In regard to interviewing his wife, yes you make sense in what you are saying I just initially found it odd. She says they were very pleasant yet brutally intimate with their questions about their sex life. I dont know what they will do with her statement or if it just gives clarification that he isn't a serial offender.

So now things are in investigation mode, does anyone have ideas of what they will be looking for now? Will they talk to more people, us as family or mutual contacts?

Apparantly she has her best friend on side which is a scary thought.

[TerrifiedinScotland]

I have just had a read of your own thread terrified in scotland, im so sorry that this has happened to you. Your situation seems all too common with the one night stand. Regret is never a reason to accuse someone of such a horrific crime but it's terrifying just how easy it is to get a case up and running.
I've seen a few people mention they were "volunteer for an interview" are u aware of why some are going for an informal while others are arrested?

One thing we don't know is when the accusations were made, im presuming very soon before the police came knocking. Am I right in thinking this or would there have been investigations ongoing before hand?

I hope you have lots of support around you.

Does anyone find it strange that they took a statement from his wife describing their relationship or is this normal practice?

One thing keeping me positive is that it's much harder to lie consistently than it is to tell the truth, the will have to slip up somewhere and our defenses will hopefully find all these holes.

Some interesting reading on the whole voluntary interview stuff - https://lewisnedas.co.uk/Newsroom/Bl...thorities.html

I suspect in my case it's because they will need to await DNA results and that has a lengthy backlog so they can avoid keeping me on bail for lengthy periods of time. And yes, I'd imagine once the allegations were made the police would have moved swiftly to secure things like phones etc as evidence

[Scottishandscared]

I suspect in my case it's because they will need to await DNA results and that has a lengthy backlog so they can avoid keeping me on bail for lengthy periods of time.

In terms of DNA when intercourse hasnt been denied, what's the purpose of this? Where the issue is consent, no amount of DNA can prove otherwise. Obviously with my brothers case they have a child together so there is solid unarguable proof of intercourse.

He isn't coping too well at all. It's devastating to see. So much love and best wishes to you all

[Scottishandscared]

Hello everyone. I'm just going to write a bit because I feel useless like there is nothing else I can do right now. My mind had been in overdrive and none of the family has had a sleep or good meal for weeks.
If anyone happens to read this, I have a few things maybe someone can give some clarification on.
* my brother doesnt have the phone he had or indeed the number he used at the time of their relationship. This device would have pics/texts/records of their time together which would possibly be able to undermine her story of an abusive relationship. Are forensics able to recover anything without the actual device or sim card? A big concern is she will present her one side without my brother having his to hand over.

* any idea why they are keeping his current phone which is only months new, was not even on the market at the time of their split. Solicitor is trying to get it back to no avail. Was told it would be returned when a decision is made. So I guess they can examine every aspect even though it's in no way related to the accusations?

I'll keep checking in and wish you all well.

[Peter1975]

Hi SaS,

The only answer I can think of is to search for messages stored in clouds or social media. I've had the same FB account for 10 years for example.

If only the accuser provides messages then I would assume that the defence would be able to cross examine on this at the very least, if not argue that a full download and forensic examination of their devices should be undertaken, albeit probably too late if a full download wasn't done at the time and messages have been lost.

I'm afraid I have no idea of the scope of an investigation, down here, I would imagine it can be a reasonable line of enquiry to examine internet history for example but these sort of things tend to be case specific. ie: Looking at porn isn't a crime in itself, but could become relevant if it contains elements of the alleged offences,

Try not to drive yourself mad, the police can and do take their time to examine devices and don't seem to care that many can't afford to just get another one. I'm glad you have a sol chasing it on your behalf.

[Scottishandscared]

Just an update. Today my brother recieved a call from the police, unfortunately he panicked and didn't pick up. It seems crazy but I suppose you just cant imagine or really understand the fear that must have shot through him unless you have been in that position. He said he just froze when he seen the number and his body became paralysed so much so he couldn't actually answer the call, he stared at the phone until the call ended then he started shaking and vomited.
We don't know what they were calling for, could be a number of reasons from wanting another interview to actually laying the charges. So we expect them to phone back tomorrow and he is ready to take the call. Good or bad news atleast its something.
As always, love and best wishes to you all.

[Franticwithworry]

I'm so sorry to hear that your brother was so frightened at the prospect of a phone call from the police. It demonstrates to anyone who may have doubted it, just how terrifying this whole process is.

Doubtless they will call back and it's not outside the bounds of possibility that they are calling to say that they are closing the case without taking any action. I have everything crossed for him and hope that he feels more able to pick up the phone next time it rings.