Bail question, opinion needed

[imsam]

Hi All, not posted before, but would like your opinion on what you think this means.

I was falsely accused of raping a girl at a party .....we were at the same party, my partner was there too. The girl was showing out to me all night , we did both have quite a bit to drink. It was the kind of party where most guests slept over . My partner went up to bed very early ( she had too much to drink) after that me and this girl had sex , then I eventually went to bed as well. The next morning this girl was confronted by my partner, about what had happened , it seems the girl looked guilty but then said that I had raped her, she then went home, but later that night she went to the police who came and arrested me.( took my phone and computer ) upon release I was bailed for 3 months.

When I turned up in 3 months , I just got re-bailed for another 3 months. When I turned up at the due date, they just said they had been very busy, and let me go and said they would get in touch when they had done their enquires,

Its been some time about 2 months since then...still no word from them and I haven't heard if they have contacted anyone else who was at the party. So I am not on bail, can even move house without asking them, no restrictions on travel......

What do you guys think this means? is it usual ? I have heard that this can go on for about two years !!! ( not sure I can take this stress for 2 years)

My partner has left me and taken away our two kids and won't let me see them , and I have lost my job , ( done some casual work) and the longer I'm out of the career loop the harder it will be for me to get another job.

I don't want to hassle them, as I kind of feel that the longer it goes on the better it will be for me, as memories of people at the party will weaken

I will be very grateful if you could give me any clues as to what ,if anything, this means

Thank you for any help you can give

[Casehardened]

Hi and welcome to the forum,

The rules regarding bail changed this year in that the police can no longer bail folks indefinitely so leading to the lengthy periods of suspense that you mentioned.

A neat way of getting around this restriction is not giving bail where it is not necessary to impose restrictions on the accused and this seems to be happening more and more. I forget when the rules changed but it may well have been after your second rebail!

You could take some comfort in that the police don't see your case as high priority i.e. an easy one to convict on.

[imsam]

Thanks Casehardend , I did see that rule change I think it was before my second bail but after my first one. Actually that doesn't seem to be such hopeful news now that I had thought it was, if they are just not bailing people because of the law. I realise its better than being charged, but not necessarily the good sign I had hoped it was.

In your experience how long do they let people live like this? and would I be best to try to get a solicitor to try to gee them up or let the time drift on so that perhaps if I do get charged I could claim that the length of time means that memories of everyone involved Me, her, the other party goers , can be affected ?

Is the length of time since the event ever an argument in court? the girl involved now has a new BF and is really happy ,going around free as a bird while I am here in my own personal hell.

Thanks again for any help any one can give me

Sam

[Casehardened]

In your experience how long do they let people live like this? and would I be best to try to get a solicitor to try to gee them up or let the time drift on so that perhaps if I do get charged I could claim that the length of time means that memories of everyone involved Me, her, the other party goers , can be affected ?

Is the length of time since the event ever an argument in court? the girl involved now has a new BF and is really happy ,going around free as a bird while I am here in my own personal hell.
Sam

That's a bit of a judgment call and remember the delay is probably down to the CPS rather than the OIC so if you stir him/her up too much they might try harder Bear in mind that as they have lots of experience in sexual offence cases they will have seen many allegations made in order to deflect blame and know that they are unlikely to succeed so aren't bothering too much (you know the girl better than anyone; is she likely to up stand in court and confirm these allegations in face of stiff cross-examination?)

Perhaps the best way would be to write a polite note to the OIC explaining how the delay in disposing of the case is affecting you and could they give any indication when this is likely to be (give an email address for a reply) However you will probably get the 'it's with the CPS' reply!

[Peter1975]

The change in the law came into effect at the beginning of April but does not apply to those arrested before that date and neither does it apply to CPS decisions. I suspect the unbailing in your case just saves on paperwork and removes a deadline for them to work to.

Sadly, there is no knowing how long you can be left in limbo for. The average time from arrest to a decision is around 6-9 months but it is not uncommon for this to exceed 2 years or more. I sometimes wonder if the cps stack cases in order of probability of conviction and pull them out when the court roster is less than full.

It is also complicated by the victim's right to have a cps decision reviewed, sometimes cases can be NFA'd but the complainant asks for a review without the defendant being made aware of the original decision.

That said, the majority of cases do not even get sent to the cps for a decision and can be NFA'd by the police themselves, most often when the complainant does not wish to co operate with the prosecution, or when the allegation is less than credible.

The delay and the fading of memories will most certainly be mentioned in court and should be highlighted by the judge in his directions to the jury. This could work both for or against you and I suggest you write everything down in the meantime. If you can snoop on her social media and take screenshots (or get someone you can trust to do this) then do so but I will stress not to contact this woman at all.

There is no legal aid available pre charge so any legal advice you would have to pay for. I doubt this would have much effect on the speed of a decision unless you can provide further evidence such as a text or a witness that proves your innocence but to be frank, unless you had sex with this woman in front of someone else, only the two of you really know what happened.

There is no harm in following the ever excellent advice from casehardened and asking the OIC for an update. I spoke to mine on a regular basis and took the opportunity to remind her that I was innocent every time.

Hang in there

[imsam]

I was told the OIC has to examine my case first, then it goes to some other police body, then it goes to the CPS.

Several other people slept over in the house ( about 10 couples) no one else heard anything at all, we were in a room with no locks on the door , she did not wake anyone up straight away, and her clothes were not torn and she had no marks on her, she went to sleep and got up at breakfast time. I was examined when being kept at the police station and the woman doing that said I had no marks or scratches on me. I am replying on the fact that she is lying and I am not, so under cross examination her lies will be shown up. I think she said what she said to cover up what we had done ( have sex) and she was scared of my partner , what I don't understand is why she went to the police later on that evening and not straight away or call them while still at the house , she just went home in her car. I know she was interviewed at the time, and I have been told she will be interviewed again before they intend to charge me ( I read on this site I think that they sometimes do this by phone) I just cannot explain just how hard this waiting is, its like my life is on hold. I have read how rapists get a very hard time inside . I don't know the girl well, but from what I know she is actually a very nice girl, I think she will be OK in court except that she is lying so hopefully a good barrister can make that clear to a jury

Thank you again its a relief just talking about it

[Peter1975]

As I understand it,the OIC will pass the case on to a sergeant or inspector that will make the initial decision. The police have their own evidential test which has to be met before passing it over to the cps who will apply first a public interest test which is generally always met and then their own evidential test which should be to a higher standard.

The decision to prosecute is then made purely on the probability of a conviction. In theory this probability can be as low as 51% and in practice the cps are wrong about that more than half the time. Last year, juries chose to acquit in 61% of cases that reached court and around 80% of all cases were not prosecuted. The odds are in your favour.

If it gets to court then yes, having the truth on your side is a big advantage. Many liars are not at all prepared for cross examination by a good barrister and they soon come undone.

Being in the groups for advice and support increases your odds of success too.

[imsam]

Thanks so much Peter for your replies. I wish you could know how much your replies help men like me in this hell of waiting ( nearly 9 months now )

I know no one can say exactly, but in your opinion am I best to just leave it now and do nothing? or try to get a solicitor to hurry things up, in the hope of ending this agony . The last thing I want to do is annoy the police though.

What can I expect to happen next? do they send a letter? or ask me to go back to the police station? do they interview people at the party now? its awful not knowing what's happening ( if anything) as I was told not to get in contact with anyone that was there.

[Rights Fighter]

...or try to get a solicitor to hurry things up, in the hope of ending this agony

It's likely you would have to pay as there is no legal aid at this point, between interview and NFA (No Further Action) or charge. There's not really a fat lot they can do at this stage unless you have evidence you think might help. If you do - do NOT go to the police with it. Take legal advice before "helping" them.

In which area, roughly, were you interviewed?

[Peter1975]

Thanks so much Peter for your replies. I wish you could know how much your replies help men like me in this hell of waiting ( nearly 9 months now )

I know no one can say exactly, but in your opinion am I best to just leave it now and do nothing? or try to get a solicitor to hurry things up, in the hope of ending this agony . The last thing I want to do is annoy the police though.

What can I expect to happen next? do they send a letter? or ask me to go back to the police station? do they interview people at the party now? its awful not knowing what's happening ( if anything) as I was told not to get in contact with anyone that was there.

I know full and well how much it means to have support. Being falsely accused of a sexual crime is nasty any way you look at it. I owe the fabulous Rights Fighter an eternal debt of gratitude for her tireless help, understanding, wisdom and support and it is my turn to give something back.

As RF and CH say, it is a judgement call about whether to sit it out or not and not one we can make for you. I know the agony of waiting and feeling that you just want to do something.

Your options are thus:

1)you can pay privately for legal advice- but this may be a waste of money at this stage unless you have evidence that could help as RF says.

2)you can sound out solicitors for free advice, - they should be happy to talk to you for 5 minutes, they will want your business in the event of a charge. try the duty solicitor first.

3)You can phone the oic yourself and ask for an update/timescale. - I see no harm in this unless the oic is a nasty piece of work.

4)Just wait

As for what happens next this can also vary. You could be NFA'd, charged or asked in for further questioning and you will either be notified by phone, email post or yes, asked to attend the police station. You don't need to attend the police station for a charge unless they wish to impose bail conditions but it's up to them.

It is pretty much up to the police and the cps to decide how to investigate. Contrary to what I wrote above*, it seems the cps now advise police at the beginning of an investigation rather than just at the end**. They may take the view that only the two of you know what happened and not bother interviewing the others at the party. This would perhaps depend on what you both told them when interviewed.



* The figure of 61% is also wrong - for clarity - 57.9% of cases prosecuted resulted in a conviction but this figure includes guilty pleas. Of the remaining unsuccessful prosecutions 61% are jury acquittals and the rest are either thrown out of court or the cps drop them before trial. Of all rapes recorded by police just 11% result in a conviction - again including those that plead guilty.

** confusingly though, "cps referrals" were recorded at roughly 7000 out of a total of 30,000 recorded rapes.

[Rights Fighter]

* The figure of 61% is also wrong - for clarity - 57.9% of cases prosecuted resulted in a conviction but this figure includes guilty pleas. Of the remaining unsuccessful prosecutions 61% are jury acquittals and the rest are either thrown out of court or the cps drop them before trial. Of all rapes recorded by police just 11% result in a conviction - again including those that plead guilty.

** confusingly though, "cps referrals" were recorded at roughly 7000 out of a total of 30,000 recorded rapes.

Thanks for the above info Peter.

Are you able to provide links to the official sources for these statistics, please? I ask as so many people post up figures / statistics when they have plucked them basically, out of the air.

I know you have not done that, however, just for future reference it would be helpful, in the event of somebody coming back and challenging what you have posted.

[imsam]

It's likely you would have to pay as there is no legal aid at this point, between interview and NFA (No Further Action) or charge. There's not really a fat lot they can do at this stage unless you have evidence you think might help. If you do - do NOT go to the police with it. Take legal advice before "helping" them.

In which area, roughly, were you interviewed?

I live near London, ( if that's what you meant by area)

I was actually feeling a little hopeful until I read here about the new law on bail length being avoided by not putting people on bail , so I'm still in this same precarious position I was before, whereas I had thought it meant they were not thinking the case worth pursuing much.

I did hear recently about someone who had been on bail for TWO YEARS and still got charged, although he did eventually get cleared in court. But it cost him LOADS as he had to have a barrister.

Thank you Rights Fighter I have read lots of threads where you have given such expert advice so I do appreciate your reply, as I do Peters , you are a great guy to come in here and 'give back' I would like one day to do that too, once this is all over.

Sam

[Rights Fighter]

Thanks Imsam

If you are called for re-interview or there is a charge the first person to call would be

http://www.freemanssolicitors.net/si...ile/harvey_fox

He would then sort you out a good solicitor in the firm, Paul Legg is one of my recommendations.


You said

But it cost him LOADS as he had to have a barrister.

If you are eligible for legal aid then that would cover the cost of a barrister. Freemans sols use good barristers!!

[Peter1975]

Thanks for the above info Peter.

Are you able to provide links to the official sources for these statistics, please? I ask as so many people post up figures / statistics when they have plucked them basically, out of the air.

I know you have not done that, however, just for future reference it would be helpful, in the event of somebody coming back and challenging what you have posted.

I've been trying to make sense of the "violence against women and girls" (VAWG) report.

The summary is here:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_ne...g_report_2016/

and the full report here:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/d...eport_2016.pdf

I'm no statistician but I do believe for those faced with charges or possible charges there is hope in the numbers.

This guardian article claims that just 7.5% of recorded rape resulted in a conviction despite reports doubling over 4 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-in-five-years

[Peter1975]

I live near London, ( if that's what you meant by area)

I was actually feeling a little hopeful until I read here about the new law on bail length being avoided by not putting people on bail , so I'm still in this same precarious position I was before, whereas I had thought it meant they were not thinking the case worth pursuing much.

I did hear recently about someone who had been on bail for TWO YEARS and still got charged, although he did eventually get cleared in court. But it cost him LOADS as he had to have a barrister.

The law on bail makes no difference to the length of an investigation unfortunately except possibly where bail conditions are still deemed necessary and extending bail would require costly court decisions.

I can think of a several cases where it has taken more than two years for a decision and in the end there is no further action. Remember that most cases are genuine and a real victim also has to wait for justice to be done. It's just the way it is and you can't read anything into the amount of time you wait.

If you are wealthy enough to not qualify for legal aid you can still recover some of the costs if you win your case. Most cases are won by great legal aid solicitors and barristers.