Me again

[ashm3110]

Hi all, I posted a while back on here with regards to my father being falsely accused of raping my sister. He went to trial but it was adjourned on the second day so the court could retrieve his medical records. He was convinced to plead guilty level 1 photos (he only downloaded 18 + girls but her side are trying to use them as evidence to his desire for young women and some girls apparently look borderline 18 but it was open to interpretation ). First day of court his barrister told him to accept incest as this is the last time he will be offered it and said he would go to jail for the pictures (I don't see how). When we got back we had a fall out as I was annoyed he accepted his incompetent barristers advice and we hadn't talked about the trial since. However he is due back next week and his barrister is now offering him sexual assault with less than a year in prison and says if he doesn't accept, my dad will be found guilty of rape at the trial. Now to me that just sounds ridiculous, am I being stupid? Anyway he said he is considering it as he's just doing simple math. Less than a year in prison or possible 5+ he is going to speak to a another solicitor tomorrow to see if she will appeal his case if he fights it. I really just need some facts to get my head around everything. What is the appeal process are there t&cs can you get it on legal aid? Now if it is a fact that someone can go to prison off word of mouth with a great deal of contradictory evidence then surely he will be best accepting this plea?? Down the grapevine My sister apparently is seemingly fine and has been told it has all ended which is utterly confusing

Thanks for any replies or advice.

[o my god]

Hi I fink u really need to speak to rf when she is on, I don't think ur dad should expect the plea bargain I would I never have done this for something that I had not done! But everyone is different is your dad willing to live with it for the rest of his life tho?

[struggling to get through]

Hi I fink u really need to speak to rf when she is on, I don't think ur dad should expect the plea bargain I would I never have done this for something that I had not done! But everyone is different is your dad willing to live with it for the rest of his life tho?

i would think he should definitely talk to another solicitor to get another opinion on how strong the case and accusations are. the difference in sentence is definitely significant but of course he will still be on sex offender register and unable to work with the lighter charge.

[Casehardened]

and his barrister is now offering him sexual assault with less than a year in prison and says if he doesn't accept, my dad will be found guilty of rape at the trial.

Thanks for any replies or advice.

My initial thought is that the barrister is amazingly prescient if he is able to predict the verdict that the jury will reach and the sentence the judge might then hand down.

Obviously the barrister is obliged to tell your dad what the reduction in sentence might be in return for a guilty plea but I hope he has also advised him of the consequences of having to then sign the Sexual Offences Register.

[Sorry, my reply overlapped with StrugglingTGT's post but it reinforces the message re the SOR]

[o my god]

I agreement but I fink the problem he will have now it that it is to far along to change sol (like I say I fink as the trial has started its to late) but rf will defo know

[Casehardened]

My initial thought is that the barrister is amazingly prescient if he is able to predict the verdict that the jury will reach and the sentence the judge might then hand down.

Obviously the barrister is obliged to tell your dad what the reduction in sentence might be in return for a guilty plea but I hope he has also advised him of the consequences of having to then sign the Sexual Offences Register.

To expand on this, plea bargaining will take place between the Crown (CPS/prosecuting barrister) and the defence; the Crown may offer to not put evidence forward for one or more charges in return for a guilty plea on the others.

This is useful for the defendant if there is a serious likelihood that they will be found guilty on all charges because of overwhelming evidence of guilt but usually plea bargaining is offered because there isn't enough such evidence and there is a likelihood that a jury will return a NG verdict.

I still don't understand how the barrister can predict the judges sentence though; depending on what the sexual assault actually entailed, an idea of the sentencing range can be obtained from the CPS website but then mitigating and aggravating factors (also detailed on the website) have to be taken into consideration.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/s..._with_a_child/

Do remember also that a sentence of more than 30 months (not time actually spent in prison which may well be less than this) will attract lifetime registration on the SOR; as mentioned by StruggingTGT & OMG this applies equally to a guilty plea and a jury guilty verdict.

The general advice from members is not to plead guilty if you are not; apart from anything else it will be impossible to mount an appeal.

With regard to a appeal should the verdict go against him there have to be grounds for appeal, it's not an automatic right. Usual grounds are new evidence which wasn't available at the time of the trial or a incorrect or biased summing up by the judge which unduly influenced the jury (NB a perverse jury verdict is not usually a ground for appeal)

I know you asked for advice but as an outsider it is impossible to advise what to do. I can understand the temptation of accepting the lesser charge especially as the guilty plea to possession will undoubtedly sway any jury (but do check those sentencing guidelines!) but against this your dad is announcing to the family and the world that he is guilty of the allegation (a not-so-subtle difference to denying it and being found guilty)

[frightened spouse]

This is a terrible situation that your Dad finds himself in, as Case hardened has already said it is impossible to give informed advice as we are unaware of the case, but I cannot imagine pleading guilty to something that never happened. It is not the easy option as your Dad and the rest of your family will experience intrusion quite possibly for the rest of his life.

Maybe I am being overly cynical but maybe the issues raised in the article below are starting to impact on defence teams decisions when advising clients



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...GeI2BS-WqbTHQA

[Rights Fighter]

If he is not guilty then that is how he should plead. It is almost impossible to appeal a guilty plea. Of course if he pleads guilty, he will then be viewed as being a self-confessed sex offender. And that will stick more than somebody who has always protested their innocence.

He would be on the Sex Offenders Register, with all that entails.

Has he actually made his plea yet or is he just considering it?

A few years back a young lad was told he was definitely going to prison as he would be found guilty and his barrister tried to persuade him to plead. After a lot of encouragement from the private forums the lad stuck to his guns and pleaded not guilty. He was found not guilty.

If he had taken counsel's "advice" that lad would be sitting in prison now, a self-confessed rapist.

[Casehardened]

Maybe I am being overly cynical but maybe the issues raised in the article below are starting to impact on defence teams decisions when advising clients



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...GeI2BS-WqbTHQA

Well done for highlighting this, I'd no idea that there was also a financial incentive as well as a legal one

[ashm3110]

Hi thank you all so much for your replies you are being incredibly helpful. I have thought this whole time that his legal team were being a bit presumtious with regards to the jury and judge I understand that they have to prepare him for the worst but it seems that the early guilty plea has been the be all and end all of his defence. He had an informal chat with anot her solicitor today which gave him another side but she obviously couldn't say too much as she wasn't being paid or wasn't his solicitor. However she did speak to him for about an hour out of her own time which I think is very positive. I've asked him to speak to his solicitor tomorrow to get all the information in regards to the case because as far as I am aware it's her story against my dad's(and grans) and the rest of the witnesses are all character references on both sides. She has said he did these things but carried on living with him for 6 months and when she left, she left a loving letter. Continued to speak to my gran, accepted presents frim her up until the allegations were made. It really doesn't add up but it's his counsel which has made my dad doubt his chances. He is allowed to ask my gran to be a witness as she lived at the house at the time? When it gets to the court the barrister will at least have to do the bar minimum right? Because his word against hers fair enough I can see why people would be sympathetic to the young "traumatised girl" but her word against his and her grandma's? That's surely a different thing all together? Thank you for taking the time to reply it mean's a lot.

[Casehardened]

He is allowed to ask my gran to be a witness as she lived at the house at the time?

Depending on when the trial resumes this may or may not be possible as the defence have to notify the prosecution in advance about any defence witnesses that they are calling; from the link below it seems that the limit is 28 days beforehand:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/d...al_chapter_15/

[Rights Fighter]

If he has already pleaded guilty then there won't be a trial, nothing to try.

It depends on the basis of the plea as to whether witnesses would be called if he has pleaded guilty to something different to what is alleged. If he has, either the CPS would have accept it, or they will argue for the guilty plea for the lot.

If CPS refuse it then there might be some sort of 'trial' but not the same as a trial where a not guilty plea is being challenged by the Crown. There is a name for that but it escapes me at the moment...

[frightened spouse]

Well done for highlighting this, I'd no idea that there was also a financial incentive as well as a legal one

Yes is very worrying, this article published yesterday in the Independent is very concerning.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...internalSearch