attempted rape and false imprisonment

[Cat]

Mark, ACAS give impartial employment advice and you don't have to tell them your name or your employer's name. Just give them an outline of the situation. 08457 47 47 47. You will feel better if you know your rights before you have the meeting with work. Good luck.

[tiger mum]

Hi Mark - I work as a HR consultant - usually for the company rather than the employee, but I know my stuff re the work situation. You are allowed a Trade Union rep or a work colleague in the Disciplinary meeting with you, but its up to you to arrange this. This is a very sensitive situation and if you ask if a friend or relative can attend with you they may accept this, however they are not obliged to unless their own disciplinary policy specifies you are allowed.

If bail conditions dictate you cannot have contact with her, is there a way you could still work but avoid any contact with her at work? I worry that if that if their decision to suspend is not challenged they could dismiss you on the grounds of "legal restriction". Your bail conditions will probably be in place for a while and they could claim it is unreasonable to expect them to wait for the police matters to be concluded.

You say relationships are not allowed in the work place - this is an unusual contractual clause - many relationships start at work - are they explicit on this point in your contract or hand book? If all you have done is had a brief relationship with someone from work outside working hours, you need to protest your innocence and defend your position as they have a duty of care to you as well as her. Raise the inconsistencies - you are allowed to bring witnesses to the hearing or submit witness statements - is their anyone who will speak for you regarding her being friendly/normal after the alleged assault?

Even if this goes all the way and you are convicted, they have to deal with your employment status correctly - her unproven accusation is not sufficient to dismiss you - they have to investigate independently and establish if there was any wrong doing. I take it you weren't in contact with her in the car during working hours, so its a matter which is impacting on work not a workplace conduct issue. They don't have to "prove beyond reasonable doubt" you committed an offence - they have to thoroughly investigate, weigh up the situation and make a decision based upon their findings.

If they do want to dismiss you their strongest point is the bail conditions imposed - they aren't in place to put you out of work - they are there to protect the FA. I'd focus on that tomorrow and ask if they will adjourn a decision until they decide if you can work whilst avoiding her - if they say you can I'd ask the police if that's okay with them and try and get back. Good luck x

[mark1234]

Sorry I didn't update earlier on.
Here is an update, when I was last at work 3 weeks ago, they basically said I was on suspension until further notice(as I was already) and they will contact me in due course.

They have today been in contact and want me to attend another meeting tomorrow. They basically said that they have almost come to a decision about what to do in regards to me but want to ask me a few more questions, then they tell me their decision by letter.

I Highly suspect they are going to ask me a few questions tomorrow, then send me away to await receipt of a letter, telling me I'm fired.

I'm back at the police station in 5 weeks to answer bail, I just hope and prey they no further action me as I can't bear the thought of having to go to court.

If they fire me I won't take it lying down, will I have a good case for unfair dismissal , bearing in mind I have not actually being changed with any crime.

I have been on suspension since mid February so coming up to two months now.

[is there justice?]

Hi Mark

I'm not sure what they can and can't do, did you contact ACAS?

I really hope the meeting goes better than you expect. If it's a large organisation I don't see why they can't wait.

Hopefully you will get NFA in due course but if the worst happens and you are charged, you WILL get through it. These allegations suck the energy and confidence out of you but you will find the strength you need.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow

[Rights Fighter]

You will be found not guilty for lack of forensics evidence as detailed in the following url -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26275136


Wrong: One of my guys went to prison after the police failed to forensically test four items, three of which the complainant said semen went. That apparently is not a ground to appeal with.


Your case will be treated as a historic rape case as she waited a week before going to the police thereby stopping the police from collecting vital medical, forensics or photography evidence.


Wrong: Historic is not a week before, that's too recent. I think you'll find that an historic rape will refer back to several months (minimum) and years/decades


Also, there are no independent witnesses to prove her allegations are true.

That's makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. People on here, (and in other's people's cases I have worked on in an attempt to appeal the convictions) will tell you that no independent witnesses are necessary for a conviction. The judge in summing up, where there is no evidence other than the word of the complainant and what he or she told other people, will say:

"You have heard the evidence, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. There is no more. The evidence in this case turns on the word of the complainant and that of the defendant. It is up to you to decide who is telling the truth, who is the more credible witness".



I was charged with raping my wife and faced a total of 38 years in prison if found guilty.

Which country are you in? Raping one's wife in the UK does not attract a 38 year sentence


But the Police/CPS produced no independent witnesses, medical, forensics or photography evidence at my 11 day trail and I was found not guilty on 5 counts of rape.

The Police/CPS are able to charge suspected sex offenders just on the word of the alleged victim.

However, no jury without any supporting evidence to prove the Police/CPS case will find you guilty.

Wrong. Yes they do. There are countless men (and some women) in prison who have been falsely accused and wrongly convicted of sex offences where there has been no DNA evidence, no injuries, and all on the word of the complainant and what he or she told other people. I have one guy who I tried to help with appeal, who was accused of rape and buggery - the complainant was 16 at the time of making a complaint.

She claimed she had been raped and buggered, several times a week by her uncle, sometimes in front of his wife (who denies that strenuously) from the age of 6 to 16. She would have needed surgery. Mother noticed NO blood in her underwear or bedding and the complainant never complained of being in pain or had difficulty walking. Two days after the last alleged assault she had her medical where she was found to be a virgin and there were absolutely NO injuries consistent with years of sexual abuse. The jury still convicted.


If she was really being forced against her will she should have gone straight to a hospital and had her wounds treated and then gone to the police with the medical and photographic evidence to prove her allegations against you.

Or she would have screamed to attract attention of any passers-by's while the attack was happening.

Or she would have scratched your face during the attack defending herself.

All these points would go through the jury's minds and they will not believe her allegations.

Complainants are usually asked why they did not do any of the above.. They tend to say that they were too embarrassed, ashamed..... etc etc. The jury often believes that and goes on to convict.



As the Head of the Met Police says in the above BBC article it is a "Catch 22" situation with historic rape cases.

However, the Police/CPS will probably hold another rape trail at tax payers expense, which is almost certainly going to fail due to lack of evidence.

Why on earth would another trial be ordered if the jury has found the defendant not guilty?


As I believe that the weak collation government want to seen taking action against men for alleged rape to win the female vote.

Men and boys make false allegations of sexual abuse. Many women are falsely accused and wrongly convicted of sexual abuse.

I really do appreciate that you are trying to help but you really do need to think your comments through before committing them to forums such as this one. The wrong advice can do untold damage later on, if people believe it.

[mark1234]

Sorry I've not been on for a while, I've been trying to put it to the back of my mind and live my life.

Anyway Yesterday I was at the police station to answer bail and find out the decision by the CPS.

I was expecting either a NFA or to be officially charged and sent to court. I was informed by the police that, and I quote " we are not sure what to do with you yet" and as a result, I'm back on bail for another month to return in early June.

I Presume in June I'll either be re bailed, get officially charged of get a NFA. I have have all my interviews and the police have even said they are waiting for the CPS to get back to them.

so either the CPS haven't looked at the case, or they have looked and are undecided how to proceed.

surely this is a good thing, if their was any hard evidence they would have charged me yesterday.

I'm just sick of the waiting game. On the plus side I have my job back, in another location but I get the feeling if I'm officially charged, I'm pretty much fired.

Now I have to return to the waiting game

[is there justice?]

Sorry to hear you were re-bailed rather than getting closure but it's good you are at work. Even then, if the worst happened and you were charged it doesn't mean you are, or would be found, guilty. As your employer has managed to find you an alternative post I don't think being charged would be grounds for dismissal.

Anyway, hopefully it won't come to that. The police give you any old excuse for re-bailing though, they must enjoy it.

[mark1234]

I have an update. I was hoping for the case to be dropped and that I would receive a NFA, however its quite the opposite.

I returned to the police station yesterday to be told I'm being officially charged with attempted rape, they did however drop the false imprisonment charge.

I'm due to attend the magistrates court on the 1st of august, probably to be told to attend the crown court shortly after to enter my pea.

This is the charge as written on the charge sheet " you did intentionally attempt to penetrate the mouth of a women with your penis, when she did not consent and you did not reasonably believe she did consent"

Have you ever heard of such a bull **** charge, and that is attempted rape.

She even said " I want to but I cant " as stated earlier , so that is hardly unwilling.

I'm probably going to end up in prison for this!..does anyone know a likely sentence , years ..months

[Rights Fighter]

That is how the counts on the indictment are worded and it is attempted rape. Oral rape.

She even said " I want to but I cant " as stated earlier , so that is hardly unwilling.

What part of the words "I can't" do you not see as being unwilling? Or have I misunderstood what you mean?

[tiger mum]

Hi Mark - You must be so angry and frustrated. I'm no expert re the charging situation and police's decision, so in the interests of avoiding saying the wrong think I won't say anything about the charge, but regarding your work......

Just because the police have believed her story and progressed to level his horrible accusation at you, it DOESN'T mean you are guilty. If it proceeds all the way to trial and if you are found guilty then they would probably have grounds to dismiss, however until that happens as long as you are complying with bail restrictions and doing your job effectively nothing should change. The potential issue would be other employees not being happy working with you due to the accusation - but if there is no history/problems regarding your work conduct or similar accusations from others you ought to be able to continue working. Whether you want to in the circumstances is another matter..... what a total **** situation for you. So sorry to hear from members when it goes this way

[tiger mum]

Hi Rights Fighter - I read the post this way - the accuser commented "I can't have sex, (although I want to) because I have my period and a sexually transmitted disease but I intend to see you again on Saturday" I think Mark means that is "hardly" the comment of a unwilling sexual partner. They performed a sex act together, but after she makes the accusation he tried to force oral sex upon her.

I know the law interprets the situation as rape - but as we have often discussed on here, the same label is used for very violent acts against victims unknown to their attacker - I believe that may be the point Mark is making.... My lad could have been in the very same position and personally I feel Mark needs a bit of understanding and support.

[Rights Fighter]

I am looking at it from the view of the police and CPS.

If she said she 'can't' (for whatever reason) then that is a 'no'. I have no idea whether he had oral sex with her after she said "I can't" as I wasn't there of course. If he did not and she is making it up then that is his defence.

I help to defend these cases so I know how the other side works.

[tiger mum]

I've no doubt you do know a lot about it from the prosecutions stand point, but maybe just now Mark has had enough of their opinion. I'll leave him to speak for himself - (if he hasn't thrown himself off a bridge by now).

[Rights Fighter]

I was responding to Mark's post.

If I came on here and pretended everything was going to be ok and rushed to comfort him, and he had no forewarning of what could happen later on, then he would not be in any position to defend himself. There are 'awkward questions' which he will be asked, by the police and later on in court/trial. If he is not forewarned about that he could easily trip himself up.

There are two persons' versions of events here. And the jury will hear both and then decide.

I was particularly interested in this, and this is to Mark

I should mention she sent me numerous dirty sexual texts before hand and the police have my phone at present and are using it as evidence.

Are these texts dated/timed after the alleged assault or before? If after, they can of course be very useful in your defence. The police should disclose them as part of their evidence or if they don't, the texts will or should go in the unused material (that is material that the CPS don't want to use in their case and some of which could undermine their case). Your defence can then make use of them to assist your case. If they are not disclosed as part of the prosecution case and they do not appear in the unused material, you will have to instruct your sol/barrister to obtain those texts to clarify the dates and times they were sent.

[myhome]

but regarding your work......
Just because the police have believed her story and progressed to level his horrible accusation at you, it DOESN'T mean you are guilty. If it proceeds all the way to trial and if you are found guilty then they would probably have grounds to dismiss, however until that happens as long as you are complying with bail restrictions and doing your job effectively nothing should change. The potential issue would be other employees not being happy working with you due to the accusation - but if there is no history/problems regarding your work conduct or similar accusations from others you ought to be able to continue working.

In Mark's original post he said he's been suspended from work because she and he work in the same place and part of his bail condition is that he is to have no contact with her. Therefore he can't "do his job effectively" because he is suspended.
If this charge is dropped or heaven forbid goes to trial and Mark is found NG, then his HR manager will have to decide how to continue from there.