Falsely accused, to get even! :(

[lawlessone2009]

Edit to add that my post overlapped with Lawlessone's and there was no collusion!

It's a conspiracy!

Thanks CH for being a bit clearer than me.

We don't need to be impressed or even to be in agreement, it's the jury that count.

Suppose you need to ensure that if the worst does happen then the judge needs to be relatively 'on side' as they have the sentencing powers.


Anyway, it's nowhere near that stage.

Do you have a good solicitor?

[tiger mum]

Hi Panda - we are using Tim Walker a partner from Sonn Macmillan Walker in the City - 020 7377 8889. I originally spoke to David Sonn another partner there - they were both excellent with their timely advice. I think they will be relieved you answered No Comment at interview - but I think they will tell you to sit tight and let the police do their job. You say you're a tourist, not sure where you are from, but you are now caught up in this country's culture and legal system - you're in a mess and you need expert help.

[lawlessone2009]

@whatsgoingon.. I get that. But, without retracting her statement, she can still choose to not support the case in court, right? in that case, will CPS still want to take me to court?

Also, since there was no rape, there obviously is not going to be any evidence.
1. They found her drink in my room, and wouldnt find drugs in it.
2. They took CCTV footage from the 1st club, probably to check if I spiked her there. That also I dint do.
3. They took the condom cover which had her finger prints on it. She put on the condom herself, with her mouth.
4. She claims she never gave me a blowjob, tho I tried pulling her face onto my crotch. Truth is she willingly gave me a blowjob. They took the condom. Is forensics elaborate enough to find her saliva, in additional to her vaginal fluids on the condom and on my crotch?
5. Proof of cancelled ticket, and the fact that she went to Gatwick police station to file the case, AFTER being turned away. Its unlikely the police know about this, because I dont think she has mentioned it to them in her statement.
6. CCTV footage off us entering the hotel, before sex, and exiting the hotel after sex. CCTV footage of us entering the 2nd club, after the alleged rape. She claims she has no idea what was going on, and I was just dragging her everywhere. In the CCTV footage, it should show clearly that she was completely in her senses and walking ahead of me, or behind me, with absolutely no help from me. These help?
7. Of course. She will have no bodily injuries or any sign off a struggle.

Will the CPS still proceed to press charges, if there is not much evidence, to corroborate her story? Infact, most of the evidence disproves her story.

Also, most importantly, I have give only a "no comments" interview so far. Does it make sense to give them a prepared statement, with enough evidence to show them motive, and proof that she could have lied? Or is it best to not tell the police anything, at this stage?

This is all so traumatic. Like most of the people here, its just impossible to lead a normal life, while this is still hanging above your head.

If you're in England then corroboration is something that happens in a foreign land. Her word against your is all that's needed to start the process.

It then boils down to decisions of what the Police/CPS want to do. They will evaluate everything that they have, potentially examine things further and then see what likelyhood they have of securing a conviction. They 'may' discover evidence which shows she is clearly the guilty party, you just never know.

As for the forensic examination. It is pretty pointless. If you have admitted having consensual sex and she is saying that she has been raped then what exactly can the forensics PROVE? That sex took place? Well, yeah. They can't solve the puzzle with regards the 'consent' issue which is at the heart of the allegation against you. You say it was consensual, she says it wasn't.

They could potentially be interested in the 'drink and drugs' side of things. They may construct a prosecution based on her being unable to consent due to intoxication. Would be difficult though if the CCTV is showing otherwise.

I really would forget about the condom/oral sex angle. It's merely taking up processing space in your head and is immaterial unless you think they're going to charge some form of oral rape?

They will be wanting to see if she was 'clearly drunk' when in or leaving the first club. If it can be argued she was then expect a charge to materialise. Think really carefully about her appearance and how straight a line she was walking in etc and see what conclusion you arrive at.

The CCTV could very well make or break the case.

If they've taken bloods from her then they could very well screen them for the presence of drugs. Bearing in mind that she would have to obtain the drugs from somewhere as it's unlikely she was on a plane with them in her possession.

[panda]

thanks for your response..

I think maybe things aren't coming across in the correct context.

Virtually everyone is trying to tell you that by cancelling the flight you more or less forced her to accuse you. What else could she do? She had no means to get home.

We're here to help you but sometimes we identify things which we feel quite uneasy with. Leaving someone stranded is one of those things. If you were, for a moment, to reverse the situation and find yourself stranded then what would you do?

It's also a matter of how things sit with a jury. It's a jury of your peers, they may well find you guilty simply to teach you a lesson. The way the world works is incredibly strange and if you are going to defend yourself then you are going to need to change your attitude and stop attempting to justify your position.

I am not implying that you are completely wrong and I certainly am not saying that what has happened was what was deserved. I am attempting to put forward that you will need to 'more subtly' clarify your position, maybe even be apologetic for cancelling her flight. Explain it off as a very silly and short sighted thing to have done but at the time you did it because of the way you felt 'used' but expanded on some more than that.

I read your first posting and side stepped replying. Obviously with some further details I can begin to see your story. This may take some time and quite a bit of help to put forward in an organised manner which shows you in a better light. Time will give the details. Keep the letter for your solicitor, do not give it to Police.

What has happened to you is in no way correct but it has happened. You now need to figure out a defence. Your defence at the moment creates the wrong impression, it's not beyond belief but it does need to be softer. We can all understand your feelings and relate to them we just need to encourage you to be more subtle with those feelings and convey them in a manner that a jury will actually consider fairly rather than taking a negative reaction too.

Welcome to the forum. You may be getting a slightly hard time but remember these are 'words' with no hatred or malice intended. We're trying to help you even though, at first, it may not seem that way. You've already processed a lot of information and typed it out, if this is easy then keep on typing. You don't need to share every detail with us but feel free to ask questions as and when you feel the need.

Firstly, thank you, to all of you have put in your time to respond to this thread. Appreciated.

As for what happened; I was already rather distressed at the what happened, at the club, when I chose to cancel her flight. I had not even showered or eaten, the whole day because I was very upset at what happened. It was obviously a very emotional decision to cancel her flight.

I was never justifying what I did, but just telling my side about WHY I did it. And fact is, I felt used and dint think she is my responsibility anymore, as she chose to leave me in a club, and spend the night with someone else (or whatever happened. I dont really know. But, she did not come back to my room till noon next day, to collect her baggage.). I was probably a jerk to cancel her ticket knowing she dint have money, but being a jerk and being a rapist, are two completely different things, and even today, I find it unbelievable that a girl who I flew in (even bought her a dress, shoe, necklace) only for a wild night of fun, could stoop to the level of crying rape, just because I cancelled her return flight.

Anyway, I cant change what I did. And from the sounds off it, nor can she recant her story without getting into trouble herself.

Obviously, my emotional state at the moment, is like MUCH WORSE than even that fateful day, and its been an emotional roller coaster, to say the least. So, am just looking for advice and some points on how cases like this usually turn out (if any of you have encountered similar cases).

Also, should I wait till the CPS takes a call on wheter to press charges (right now, am bailed till Feb 5th), before meeting a lawyer, or should I do it, right away?

[lawlessone2009]

Start researching solicitors just now. You will be wanting a solicitor present if the Police want to carry out any more questioning, you'll also want one so that they can dig around and see if there's any info becoming available. Generally your solicitor would know either an hour or two before you answer bail, or a day or two before, what the intentions of the Police/CPS are. It's handy to go into things slightly prepared. They will also attempt to ensure your legal rights are protected.

There is a sticky:

http://www.daftmoo.org.uk/mooforum/s...ist-solicitors

This lists solicitors that others have used and recommend. You may be able to find one near to you. Your choice may be greater if you are in a position to pay. If you're not then ask any potential solicitor if they work on Legal Aid.

[panda]

further details..

If you're in England then corroboration is something that happens in a foreign land. Her word against your is all that's needed to start the process.

It then boils down to decisions of what the Police/CPS want to do. They will evaluate everything that they have, potentially examine things further and then see what likelyhood they have of securing a conviction. They 'may' discover evidence which shows she is clearly the guilty party, you just never know.

Her story (from whatever they revealed at my interview), seems to have a lot of holes.

As for the forensic examination. It is pretty pointless. If you have admitted having consensual sex and she is saying that she has been raped then what exactly can the forensics PROVE? That sex took place? Well, yeah. They can't solve the puzzle with regards the 'consent' issue which is at the heart of the allegation against you. You say it was consensual, she says it wasn't.

She claims she wasnt in her senses and I forced myself on her, after putting on a condom. Fact is I handed her a condom, she tore it, and put it on herself, with her mouth. So, cant forensics reports disprove that part of her story?

They could potentially be interested in the 'drink and drugs' side of things. They may construct a prosecution based on her being unable to consent due to intoxication. Would be difficult though if the CCTV is showing otherwise.

Of course, CCTV footage from hotel just before sex, and just after sex will show her in a normal state, and walking herself from the taxi to the room, and later, from room to taxi. Also, we did goto a second club, after the sex.

I really would forget about the condom/oral sex angle. It's merely taking up processing space in your head and is immaterial unless you think they're going to charge some form of oral rape?

She claims she DID NOT give me a blowjob, altho I asked her to. Another lie. But, will forensics be able to prove that she did blow me, if they find traces off saliva on the condom?

They will be wanting to see if she was 'clearly drunk' when in or leaving the first club. If it can be argued she was then expect a charge to materialise. Think really carefully about her appearance and how straight a line she was walking in etc and see what conclusion you arrive at.

She was definitely fine. She had taken MDMA around 3 hours prior to the incident, and had a few drinks at the club. So, the drinks would have probably cleared out her MDMA buzz, and as far as I can remember, she was ALMOST sober.

Infact, at the first club, she even removed her stockings and panties, for me. This was around half an hour before we left. Infact, we even took selfies just before leaving the first club, around 30 mins before the sex happened.

The CCTV could very well make or break the case.

THIS is GOOD to know.

In addition to this, there is also the sex related sexting and her sending me a nude photo of herself prior to starting from Aberdeen.


If they've taken bloods from her then they could very well screen them for the presence of drugs. Bearing in mind that she would have to obtain the drugs from somewhere as it's unlikely she was on a plane with them in her possession.

Now, this is the other thing that worries me. Around half a gram of MDMA, which was left from what she took, was recovered by forensics when they were inspecting my room before releasing it to me.

But, I did not spike her, or give it to her. She took it all, on her own. I am not sure how to prove that. Is it upto me to prove I dint spike her, or is it upto the CPS to prove that I spiked her? How does this really work?

The funny thing about being falsely accused is, you just dont expect anything, and dont take any precautions. If you were really guilty, you would be careful to avoid leaving any evidence. This is so ****ed up.

Thanks again, for the detailed view.

My response within your reply, in bold.

2.

[myhome]

I shall now bow out of the thread and leave it to others.

Me too.....I find the graphic detail unnecessary and prefer not to read any more - CH and LL1 are giving excellent advice as always

[panda]

Me too.....I find the graphic detail unnecessary and prefer not to read any more - CH and LL1 are giving excellent advice as always

Sorry about the graphic detail, but I read several times in this forum, that no detail is too small, when telling your side of the story. So, I was just putting everything I can think off, on the table, in-order to get some opinion on how good/bad my situation is. I know its probably not official legal advice, but considering most of you have had some experience dealing with such issues, I believe you would definitely be able to assess the situation better than me.

I am stuck in an alien country, with no work, and nothing much to do, other than to think about this, the whole day. I am holed up in a room, on my own, sitting in front of the laptop, researching about false allegations and false convictions and etc etc. Its not easy to describe how I feel, and what am going through.

So, kindly pardon my inadvertent ramblings, if they come across as offensive or unnecessary.

[panda]

selecting a lawyer

Hi Panda - we are using Tim Walker a partner from Sonn Macmillan Walker in the City - 020 7377 8889. I originally spoke to David Sonn another partner there - they were both excellent with their timely advice. I think they will be relieved you answered No Comment at interview - but I think they will tell you to sit tight and let the police do their job. You say you're a tourist, not sure where you are from, but you are now caught up in this country's culture and legal system - you're in a mess and you need expert help.

Thanks for that, tiger mum. I guess I will need to research and finalize on a lawyer, during the course off this week. There are so many options here, and I have no clue really, on how to decide who to go along with.

[Casehardened]

Hi, the moderating team have deleted your post containing the text transcripts and photos as this forum is viewable by anyone (though they can't post without registering)

The quirks of the UK legal system dictate that the complainant in a sexual offence case cannot be identified outside of the courtroom unless they are subsequently convicted of PCJ for making a false allegation. Anyone who contravenes this ruling can be held in contempt of court.

We therefore insist on anonymity for our forum member's own protection (and safety from any possible vigilante action!)

The information contained in the deleted post is valuable evidence for your defence (should this prove necessary) but should be only shared with your legal team who will use their discretion as when and where to reveal it.

I'm guessing your bail condition preclude you returning home until Feb 5th (passport seized?); however if you are then rebailed because the CPS have not come to a decision (this is quite likely) you could ask a solicitor to try to vary this decision.

[panda]

confused..

Hi, the moderating team have deleted your post containing the text transcripts and photos as this forum is viewable by anyone (though they can't post without registering)

The quirks of the UK legal system dictate that the complainant in a sexual offence case cannot be identified outside of the courtroom unless they are subsequently convicted of PCJ for making a false allegation. Anyone who contravenes this ruling can be held in contempt of court.

We therefore insist on anonymity for our forum member's own protection (and safety from any possible vigilante action!)

The information contained in the deleted post is valuable evidence for your defence (should this prove necessary) but should be only shared with your legal team who will use their discretion as when and where to reveal it.

Sorry about that.

I'm guessing your bail condition preclude you returning home until Feb 5th (passport seized?); however if you are then rebailed because the CPS have not come to a decision (this is quite likely) you could ask a solicitor to try to vary this decision.

Thanks for that tip, @CH. But, when you say "vary this decision", what does that mean? Will I be allowed to leave the country?

Also, another thing am extremely confused about. Now, the police know only her side of the story.
Which means, they probably dont know about the sexting, or the cancelled flight, and the altercation in the 2nd club.
As off now, they do not know off any motive why she would want to lie or be vengeful.

So, does it make sense to give them a prepared statement briefing these, so that they will have sufficient information to realise that she could possibly be lying?
Which could probably lead to them taking a quicker decision?

Its a very layman-ish thought, and am unsure of the legal implication of the same. Any advice will be appreciated.

[Casehardened]

Thanks for that tip, @CH. But, when you say "vary this decision", what does that mean? Will I be allowed to leave the country?

Obviously no-one knows what will happen in your case (as you are a foreign national) but some members have had bail extended for many months before a decision is made; it would be unfair to prevent you returning home for all this time. However only the custody officer at the police station or the magistrates can vary bail conditions and it would be best to get a solicitor to apply for this

Also, another thing am extremely confused about. Now, the police know only her side of the story.
Which means, they probably dont know about the sexting, or the cancelled flight, and the altercation in the 2nd club.
As off now, they do not know off any motive why she would want to lie or be vengeful.

So, does it make sense to give them a prepared statement briefing these, so that they will have sufficient information to realise that she could possibly be lying?
Which could probably lead to them taking a quicker decision?

Its a very layman-ish thought, and am unsure of the legal implication of the same. Any advice will be appreciated.

The question of how much information to give the police has come up many times; the main issue is that if you give the police information that contradicts the complainant's statement, they will re-interview her regarding this information. She then has the opportunity to give a fresh statement which may negate your information (and will also be prepared for any cross-examination on these points)

This is more relevant if there is conflict over dates, opportunities etc. In your case there is no dispute over anything except consent so I personally feel that you have nothing to lose by giving a prepared statement. Was your initial no-comment interview on the advice of the duty solicitor? If so, no adverse inference should be drawn from this, nevertheless in the minds of any potential jury no-comment interviews equate to guilt; i.e. if you are innocent why not explain the circumstances?

If money is not an issue with you, I would be inclined to contact a specialist solicitor (you have had some suggestions and there is plenty of choice of firms in London) pay for a hours or so time with a partner, and discuss requesting a further interview with the police with or without a prepared statement. (you won't need to pay for your solicitor to sit in on this interview)

[panda]

Thank you, CH..

The question of how much information to give the police has come up many times; the main issue is that if you give the police information that contradicts the complainant's statement, they will re-interview her regarding this information. She then has the opportunity to give a fresh statement which may negate your information (and will also be prepared for any cross-examination on these points)

Oh my. Doesnt it look bad for her case, if she changes her original statement? I mean, we will still have access to her original statement, right?

Is it possible that they would re-interview her, even without my statement, if they find contradictory evidence?

Doesnt this sort off amount to collusion?

This is more relevant if there is conflict over dates, opportunities etc. In your case there is no dispute over anything except consent so I personally feel that you have nothing to lose by giving a prepared statement. Was your initial no-comment interview on the advice of the duty solicitor? If so, no adverse inference should be drawn from this, nevertheless in the minds of any potential jury no-comment interviews equate to guilt; i.e. if you are innocent why not explain the circumstances?

Yes. The first "no comments" interview was on the advice of the duty solicitor. I was pretty much a zombie, at that point, and completely vulnerable to any interrogation tactics by the police. Infact, it was evident when the interview started, from the way the questions were framed. It would be like Newbie in the ring with Tyson, if I chose to answer any of them. So, it was probably a good idea that I dint open my mouth, except to say "no comments".

Also, dispute is probably going to be about two things:-
1. did I spike her drink with mdma, or did she take it on her own? she claims she dint know I gave it to her, and that I told her at the 1st club.
2. obviously, consent to sex. she claims she was screaming no.

Infact, the involvement of drugs is the main reason why my solicitor thought I should go with a no comments interview.

If money is not an issue with you, I would be inclined to contact a specialist solicitor (you have had some suggestions and there is plenty of choice of firms in London) pay for a hours or so time with a partner, and discuss requesting a further interview with the police with or without a prepared statement. (you won't need to pay for your solicitor to sit in on this interview)

Well. I dont think I can afford 50k in fees, out of the blue. But, a few 100s for initial consultation & a possible interview is something I could arrange for, at the moment. From what I have seen on this forum, if I have to pay privately, am looking at about 50k or so. Is that right?

[Casehardened]

Oh my. Doesnt it look bad for her case, if she changes her original statement? I mean, we will still have access to her original statement, right?

Is it possible that they would re-interview her, even without my statement, if they find contradictory evidence?

Doesnt this sort off amount to collusion?

Sadly the rules of this 'game' are very one-sided, your goalposts are at least twice as wide apart as hers

Any discrepancies between statements will be explained away by memory lapses or post-traumatic stress due to the dreadful ordeal she has experienced.

No such courtesy will be extended to yourself of course, your statement will be mercilessly dissected.

(will sleep on the drugs issue as my thought processes work better in the mornings!)

[grababadger]

I don't see a problem with writing a statement, as long as you focus on motive and facts (things that can be proven mainly). I would only go into detail regarding things that cannot be manipulated in anyway shape or form. For example, she agreed to have sex with you beforehand (text messages will prove you had both agreed to meet for a sexual encounter), you met at location X, you then went to location X, you had sex at the hotel, you had an argument, she left you to engage with someone else (an escort), you cancelled her flight. ETC ETC.

If the police don't know your side of the story then how can they remain impartial. They will have no choice but to go along with what she says. As for the issue regarding drugs, that is something you need to discuss with a solicitor ASAP.

I know people say don't tell the police anything, but me personally I am of the opinion that if you are innocent and your side of events can be evidenced then you really have nothing to lose. Obviously, if you were to tell the police something along the lines of, we both took MDMA together then obviously this would go against you. Stick with the truth and show your regret regarding cancelling her flight, otherwise you may come across as heartless which wont bode well with the authorities.

I assume you are in UK alone? if you want a chat sometime, pm me your number and i'd be more than happy to have a chat.