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**lawlessone2009** · 22 December 2011, 01:48 AM

I was awakened probably every 15-20mins with the custody guy 'checking' to make sure I was ok... ARGH!

I was then awakened and taken for a medical....... My own bloody family doctor (who I've been seeing for stress, anxiety and depression) just happens to be the Police Surgeon. Oh boy! We made eye contact but neither of us let on that we knew each other, not entirely sure it would matter anyways. He duly processed the medical, asked how I was and then I was off back to the cell.

I was awoken again for further DNA samples to be taken from my mouth, three lots from my bloody mouth now and with the scarring from childhood on my gums it was really starting to hurt!!!

I was awakened for real at about 5.30 am. Breakfast and then loiter around the cell for hours. Off over to the court building, which is directly linked to the Police station, around 8-9am where I was placed in a holding cell on my own. The prison vans were arriving and I was kind of hoping that some bodies would be placed in with me. Better talking with knife wielding thugs (joke) than playing games in your own mind! Alas, it wasn't to be, I was on my own.

A brief conversation with my solicitor who informed me they were awaiting paperwork and the likes and then I had to pass hours away thinking about anything that would distract me and also seek to go to the toilet (separate room) every half hour for a change of scenery and also to ask the time.

There was a problem... Somewhere there was a problem and I didn't know about it. 2pm came and went and eventually around 3pm I was led out the cells ready to make my way into court. We didn't go up those stairs (been up them ONCE before so I know where they are!) but instead went back to the check-in desk where the interviewing Officer was standing with another Officer. They informed me that I was 'going with them'. I thought, **** I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE QUESTIONING. Then I thought maybe the accusation has been withdrawn. Then I thought maybe the prosecution service had decided there wasn't any evidence. Then I thought maybe the DNA had been super-quick processed and proved I hadn't touched the girl. Then I thought she'd kissed me so DNA would be there. Then I thought that maybe penis DNA was of a different type or something........

God, the thoughts and all so quickly. The arresting Officer let me jump through these thoughts (he bloody well knew the confusion running through my mind!) before saying that I was to be released on Police bail to return to court in one week.

I was duly bailed with certain conditions;
Not to enter my home town, where my parents stay.
Not to contact either directly or indirectly the accuser or the others involved.
To do whatever was required of me.

I had no problems with this.

I met my mum and dad outside in the waiting area at the station. We left and I got my first nicotine hit in 25 hours! I was pretty close to breaking point and simply couldn't believe what had happened and what the charge was... I managed to drive home and then had a bath and went to bed exhausted...

A week later and I was in the court for 9.30am sharp when the Police bail was down for expiring. My solicitor was nowhere to be seen... My name wasn't on any lists... Confusion began. My parents and I waited until about 11am and then called the solicitors office where we were informed that he was on his way from another court. When he arrived he was a little confused and said there was no paperwork and no case yet as Edinburgh had to decide what was happening. I read this as a positive. I was allowed out for lunch after clearing it with my solicitor. My parents and I had a quiet conversation and everything was kept positive.

Back to the court and around about 3pm my solicitor came out and said that the paperwork had come through and the prosecution were proceeding. He then read the brief statement to me and instantly I knew there was a lot more alleged than had been shouted at my parents. My previous comments about the 'grunting' were in there... The images and the lies were running through my mind at one hundred miles an hour. It was a really convincing lie UNTIL the grunting was mentioned! I couldn't believe 'grunting' was mentioned... I nearly burst out laughing at the absurdity of it and imagined that the girls (my old friends sister and what I had learned to be her younger cousin, the younger cousin being the accuser) had simply watched way too much porn and decided that a rapist did things like this! There were other lies in amongst the statement but without having a hard copy in my hands and time to analyse it properly I was unable to say anything apart from 'I didn't do it'. The solicitor really had his work cut out as although he is a defence solicitor he has to quickly think through the information he is presented with and take a good long look at the man in front of him and then decide whether he actually wants to take the case on. I have a nervous twitch/almost laugh which I have suffered from for years and this didn't do any favours but I was asked about it and when I presented the answer it seemed to clear the path for a defence solicitor to become MY DEFENCE SOLICITOR.

Both parties are clearly taking a big risk but I was happy and he seemed happy. Doing a bit of background searching and I am still happy.

It was a quick into court and 'No plea or declaration' then a bail application put forward. I was granted bail with conditions pretty much the same as mentioned earlier. The killer is not being able to visit my parents at home (my childhood home!) but on the wider consideration it is understandable although wrong.

I am now on court bail. I have no idea 'when' or 'if' there is going to be a trial. My solicitor is supposed to be receiving statements around about now but no news yet. My parents made a complaint to the Police about the damage to the vehicle and put forward a name but as yet no info AND it's being treated as a completely separate matter... Call me stupid but they all seem related...

I've now had a few weeks to read and read I have been doing... I have read the legislation and came up with the one question that's stuck in my mind:

How in gods earth did these people KNOW that putting your penis in someone's mouth was rape?

It's not as if they are particularly bright yet they seemed to KNOW it was rape. I have surmised that the older girl KNOWS about all of this due to her dead brother being through something similar and she most likely knows how the system works.

I also discovered that there is a 'reward' (called compensation!!!) for making a rape allegation which doesn't need to be proven but needs to be more than likely to have happened and this sum comes in at £11000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's a hell of a lot of money and these are tough times. There aren't ANY jobs in my parents village so that kind of money would be handy. Hell, that kind of money would come in very handy to me at the moment but then I'd rather earn it than be given it but then each to their own. I also have absolutely no doubt at all that these girls are more than aware of the money possibilities.

So, why in hell make the allegation? I am not sure. I believe that it is due to me slating the older girls brother and calling him what I did. It's retaliation to make me feel what she and her family have no doubt felt. It's also inadvertedly got the strange possibility of sticking in so far as a trial is concerned.

In Scots law there is a requirement for 'corroboration'. I've always thought of it as a good thing but it's been *******ised beyond recognition in an effort to 'get it out the way' as it's a bit of a pain in the ass to have to corroborate things... Bit like global warming and things.

Anyway, in order to get round 'corroboration' there is some case law been/being built up over the years and one of the cases I have stuck on is 'Moorov v HMA' which is an oldie but it's been built on over the years. Perversion of the law is generally built in step change rather than instantaneous change which is often rejected so gradually getting to where you want to be is the name of the game.
Brief outline and link:
• Series of offences connected closely in “time, character and circumstance and have underlying unity.”
• Evidence of one witness in a series of two or more separate offences may be capable of providing corroboration for the evidence of a witness in another case or cases.
• Only evidence of the greater charge can corroborate the lesser charge, not vice versa
• Not restricted to sexual assaults
• The time factor can vary- usually not more than 3 years apart. however it may extend to this period in specific circumstances: Dodds v HMA
• Character of the crime must be the same
• Sodomy and rape are not the same crimes P v HM Advocate 1991 However as children were involved Moorov applied
• Incest and sodomy are not the same crimes HM Advocate v Cox 1962
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorov_v_HMA

I have previous convictions, driving. I have also been accused at one time of an assault (hence my remembrance of the 'court stair door') although this never went anywhere and was deserted before trial due to lack of witness attendance and the fact I kept my mouth shut. In amongst this is an allegation that never resulted in a charge but could be viewed in time, character and circumstance and have underlying unity.

I met a female, a few years ago, that I used to go to school with. She had always fancied me and had made a play on a couple of occasions. I entertained her one evening and went back to hers. We had sex and all the other stuff and then she fell asleep and started snoring REALLY LOUDLY. I decided I was leaving, went to the toilet, grabbed a drink of water and was about to leave when her friend emerged from her room (which was somewhere else in the house) and called me a '******* and using c*nt'for leaving. I wished her well in a cheeky manner and left... She also had kind of made a play for me on a couple of occasions although I don't think I actually ever admitted this...

Later transpires that SHE made an allegation that I went into her room and kissed her. YEP, went into her room and KISSED HER! Man oh man... Why not have it down as an attempted rape or something, but bless her she didn't and made an allegation of KISSING HER. I was interview under caution on a voluntary basis and never charged although I never did her what happened to the case and certainly never got confirmation of no further action or whatever. It's basically on the same grounds as Sexual Assault which is in the ball park of Rape I suppose although Moorov seems to take corroboration the other way with the more serious providing corroboration for the lesser allegation. All gets back to the wanting to do away with corroboration altogether and what better way to do it than have a 2012 court trial that results in a conviction and then appeal and then held conviction that takes Moorov and all the other cases and beautifully packages them up to KILL CORROBORATION?

The prosecution service are DESPERATE to do something like this as are the Scottish government. All they need is a successful prosecution and an unsuccessful appeal in the High Court and they've achieved their target from my take on things...

I'm by no means saying that there will be a successful prosecution in my case and very much doubt there will be. The corroboration is crazy! I honestly didn't know about how perverted corroboration was! Unfortunately I need to deal with it and accept that very possibly this is why the charge exists.

It's taken along time to get to this understanding through a complete lack of information upon being charged. It seems that rape accusers get pamphlets and guidance and mentoring and counselling but the accused gets NOTHING. I know I've been charged but I don't know the reasons for the charge, the exact reasoning! It would be silly to attempt to blame my solicitor as he is just about as in the dark as me and you cannot possibly expect solicitors to bear the full responsibility for explaining a Police charge to their client when surely the actual Police that make the charge are the proper people to explain it. Hell, they could even hand out a bloody booklet to read!

My one saving grace is that the DNA came back 'inconclusive'. I read this a million ways and I did a lot of reading about DNA along with questioning my friend who's an expert in this field. Basically if I'd been near her it would be there, I was insisting I hadn't and the DNA seemed to conclude that I hadn't but then the Police, like the vermin they are, go and pervert this in the statement to court saying that several hours had passed, the girl had been to SLEEP, had cups of tea and smoked cigarettes...

Bloody hell, just been raped and off you go to bed then have a couple of cups of tea some smokes and then call in the boys in blue...

I'm basically guilty through Moorovs' doctrine and also circumstance. I left the village and travelled home drunk. There MUST be a reason for this and a little bit of 'mens rea' which is fair enough to assume but it couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not proud of this but I do quite regularly drive drunk, it just seems to happen. I behave myself for a while and then for no other reason than whim I get in the car and drive home.

**lawlessone2009** · 22 December 2011, 01:49 AM

I suppose the truth is that I am over sensitive to certain things. I have what I called in the interview 'a 6th sense'. The Police are clearly implying that this is 'mens rea' but it is not. I don't need a guilty consciousness to do things, I can simply be over analytical and then decide that I must go home as I have to do x, y or z and have to be home. This jumps to a ready assumption that I can simply jump in the car and drive home. It's a similar situation that most drink drivers find themselves in, an assumption that they have a RIGHT to be selfish and suit themselves. I as yet have not suffered any consequences due to this but am attempting to avoid doing it at all either through having others 'hide' my keys or battling with myself not to drive.

My reasons for driving home that night are to do with 'rejection'. I assumed that being asked to leave the house was partly due to insulting the householders deceased brother but also due to my past. I was regarded, wrongly, as a gay boy in the village due to a childhood story that was made up when I was 13. This destroyed my life, left me unable to hang around with my own type and ended most chances I had of having a normal unaffected life. I went from being an achiever (sports champion, keepie-uppie champion, swimming champion, general academic champion) to a rebellious little twerp that left school at 16 (with decent qualifications - credit standard grades - but not what I could have achieved and certainly not the highers and university entry that was easily gotten). I got out the village quick and off to a new life. Things faltered a little but eventually I got settled and started with a big multi-national company as an apprentice engineer. I finished my apprenticeship and went on to advance in the company with a probable management position in the not too distant future.

I returned to the village on many an occasion and whilst others had never went anywhere or done anything I regarded myself as a success of type. I never openly boasted about anything or made myself stand out, I never have and never will, but part of me was glad that I had 'beaten' the 'gay boy' into check and proved to myself that I could rise above it. Part of my reason for going for a pint in the local pub was to show that I really didn't give a toss what people said and that I would no longer be affected by it. I also discovered quite quickly that there were very decent folks in the pub and made new friends with a good crowd. I was pleased at this achievement especially at a time where I was actually being engulfed by my gay boy past in so far as the stress and strain had never left me along with the thoughts and self doubt and actual beliefs that had built up in me. My job and my goals and aspirations in life simply vanished. Everything that was within my grasp was destroyed in a short period of time when I face a dangerous driving charge (speeding nicely tarted up!) and started questioning the law and humanity. It took a while but within two years of conviction my belief system was destroyed and I entered into depression and anxiety. I couldn't cope with simple everyday things, couldn't accept authority and detested the government and their money making ideas.

I viewed where I was and decided to change it. I resigned from my job and went contracting. This was successful for a while but then the fabricated 'recession' arrived and my work dried up. Since then I have been thrown on a scrap heap and left to rot with nothing but hindrance from an unhelpful Job Centre thingy which has shown the gross incompetence of the government. It HAS however taught me many a lesson, the hard way, about how the world really works. I am just now (over the past year) beginning to rise up and out of my depressed state, I'm dealing with my anxiety on my own after the medical profession wanted me to believe psychotic drugs were the answer. I've been progressing at an alarming rate and reading, reading and reading. The amount of knowledge I have gained lately has been like a whole new awakening for me and I am relishing what the future may hold. I now understand that although my criminal record states I am a criminal I do not have the 'mens rea'. I have never had a guilty mind on any of the 'offences' I have been convicted off (not many and all motoring), what I have had is a 'selfish mind'. I never ever go out and commit a crime against fellow man, I never want to short change or cheat fellow man (probably why I'm not rich!!!) and I never regard anyone as lesser or greater than me (although the above may seem to indicate that it is merely for information!). I do things purely for pleasure and if I am caught and prosecuted then I know that I am being prosecuted for a crime against the state and not a crime against man so I know that I can drag my feet, take a chance of it not going to court and if it does go to court entertain a trial. JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT... I really don't care and I learn something each time, lately I've even been able to be bloody successful which has most likely indicated my progression into 'hardened criminal' although I just like to think of it as 'wide awake sheep'...

I suppose at the end of the day there is a high probability that this WILL go to trial. I can hope that my version of events which are true are believed by the jury but I am never too sure as I know how the legislation works. I really don't see any great big deal about prison as long as I am going there for something I have done. It's the very fact that I have not done this atrocious crime that is overwhelming my thought processes and driving me to absolute distraction. I just want it all to be over. If the end result is jail then I will be going there innocently and I will emerge an innocent man ready to continue my life. I will be absolutely devastated at spending time away from my partner and the most fantastic little lady, my daughter, not to mention my family and my friends. That's the absolute hardest part. I don't care about prison, it's immaterial to me and as long as I can read I don't care how long it's for or where it is. The problem is that the village and these people will be successful in continuing blatant lies against me, my parents will directly suffer, my friends will question my standing and my partner and daughter will lose their daddy.

I used to hear about 'rape' on the TV and radio. Read about it in the newspapers. I used to be ignorant as to what 'rape' was... Not anymore and there couldn't be a harder way to learn about it than this...

**RFLH** · 22 December 2011, 11:09 AM

As you've gone into so much detail - you may well be open to police accessing this information to be used against you.

Is there anything you wish to have removed? If so, please quote the passages to me and I - or another mod - will remove it for you.

**Rights Fighter** · 22 December 2011, 11:29 AM

I used to hear about 'rape' on the TV and radio. Read about it in the newspapers. I used to be ignorant as to what 'rape' was... Not anymore and there couldn't be a harder way to learn about it than this...

You are joking aren't you! How old are you?

**lawlessone2009** · 22 December 2011, 04:58 PM

RFLH;

Police already have all this information apart from the 'gay boy' part... I'm not bothered if they find it and wish to use it, I have nothing to hide... If you feel that I have admitted guilt somewhere then please be assured that it is not intentional as I have a 100% clear and guilt free mind. I know the law stops at nothing to gain their statistical convictions but I am at a point where I don't actually care. I'm not guilty and everyone that is close enough to care knows that I am not guilty so I really couldn't give a toss what a soulless state and their little robots want to do, I may be affected by it for a period but it is not going to destroy my life. Lies have already done enough damage to me and I will not give them the pleasure of inflicting any more.

Rights Fighter;

I'm not joking. Rape is not something that has ever interested me. Maybe you're reading my words out of context which is easily done as the sentences are a little vague (due to the time of night and length of my writing). My ignorance about rape was based on assumption that 'rape' was FORCED penetration which always conjured up images of pinning a woman/man to a bed or floor or piece of ground and violently assaulting her/him through either anal or vaginal intercourse against her/his will. By 'forced' I am implying 'violent' not the more common:

We had sex but then I didn't like him/her anymore so it was rape...

or

I feel like getting some money and this guy/lady looks like a sucker for a nice allegation especially the way he/she is so blase and insulting about my family...

I also assumed, wrongly, that when it came to 'proper' crimes (not silly speeding offences and such) where an individual had suffered harm or loss there actually had to be EVIDENCE. Proper substantiated evidence. It now seems that the requirement for evidence is LESS for a serious crime than it is for a minor one... Throw enough circumstantial evidence at a jury and there's a 50% chance of conviction (either they do or they don't convict, NOT the ACTUAL statistics!)

I'm 28... States such in about the fourth or fifth paragraph.

**Rights Fighter** · 22 December 2011, 05:02 PM

I'm 28... States such in about the fourth or fifth paragraph.

I don't have the time or the inclination to read through the whole post(s). There is no need to write all that down and there are other people on this forum who are equally deserving who manage to write their problems without so much detail.

It is a well known fact that Rape is actually sexual intercourse without consent. Force/violence does not have to come into it.

**lawlessone2009** · 22 December 2011, 05:14 PM

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there.

My brain is pretty scrambled at the moment. I seem to doddle off down thought paths. I also have a habit of divulging more information than necessary at times but the info I have put up is nothing that is not already known to the authorities.

I'm lacking sleep, lacking food and lacking relaxation. The past month odds has been absolute hell for me and my close family. I go round and round and round in circles thinking about stuff. It's just that the more I read the more it seems as if 'guilt' or 'innocence' have very little to due with the law. Evidence also seems to be a some what lacking requirement.

My friend that's experienced with DNA says that if I had been near her it would be there and even a tiny sample would be enough to get a result that can be used. When I said the results were 'inconclusive' he said that there was basically no case as there was no evidence. I just don't know what to think...

**gem** · 22 December 2011, 09:13 PM

sorry to say this but that does not matter their is no dna . don.t want you to get your hopes up. my son was convicted without it, as are a lot of others are, historic rape ect ....i really really hope things go well in your case we are all here for you

**Casehardened** · 22 December 2011, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by lawlessone2009 View Post

When I said the results were 'inconclusive' he said that there was basically no case as there was no evidence. I just don't know what to think...

This term is unfortunate as it appears to imply that there was some doubt while in reality, as your friend pointed out, it means that there was no match at all.

However he is not correct in saying there will be no case because of this as the statements from the accuser will count as evidence.

I am not really familiar with Scottish Law and procedures but I imagine you are at the stage where the Procurator Fiscal is considering the evidence and whether to take the matter to trial?

**lawlessone2009** · 23 December 2011, 02:23 AM

Gem;

Sorry to hear about your boy and thank you for your comments. I'm assuming that a trial is inevitable regardless of DNA but I am looking for some positives which is kinda why I'm here to read about everyone elses cases and feelings and thoughts, put up some of my own and also seek out help myself. Maybe didn't get off to a good start with my enormous posting but I thought it better the info out there rather than feeding it out in bits...

Casehardened;

Yeah, when I originally heard the 'inconclusive' word I assumed it was 'either way'. I even got to the point of arguing with my parents until I sought refuge with my friend. I think he is implying that there is 'no case to answer' as far as the DNA is concerned. He's basically saying that there is no point in the prosecution mentioning it as it would only damage their case especially considering the DNA was taken reasonably quickly after the allegation was made (<12 hours). The mentioning of the tea and cigarettes etc seems to have been stuck in by the cops to cover the fact there isn't any DNA evidence, to kind of cover it... The lack of DNA is only to be taken as beneficial to me towards proving innocence, I do understand that there is still the statements etc.

Yeah, the prosecution have had an initial hearing to remove the Police bail and put in place court bail. They are at the precognition stage I think where they go out and question the victim and potential witnesses again and write it all up on their own paper. This should already have been done by today and my solicitor should have them but I can only surmise that Chrimbo and things will mean it'll be January before anything really starts moving.

Had quite a few comments so far and I am very thankful. I never knew this place existed until a Google search threw it up, thanks to the owners and mods. I am reading other peoples experiences and I may make comment at some point on some of them but for the now I am still getting a feel for the place and certainly don't want to overpower the mods with 20 billion posts. I'm still getting up to speed myself so my info may not be of great use at present.

**Casehardened** · 23 December 2011, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by lawlessone2009 View Post

but for the now I am still getting a feel for the place and certainly don't want to overpower the mods with 20 billion posts. I'm still getting up to speed myself so my info may not be of great use at present.

, however as mentioned not many members have had first-hand knowledge of the Scottish legal system and procedures, especially considering the changes in the last year, and your full account of your experiences has given some valuable insight.

**lawlessone2009** · 23 December 2011, 11:27 PM

Yeah, it seems that the arrest is quickly followed by the charge which then seems to be quickly followed by a court appearance regardless of whether there is actually going to BE a court case up here in Scotland now.

Absolute MAXIMUM of pressure applied to the accused by the looks of it!

I seem to understand that in England and Wales people are arrested but then bailed to be later charged or NFA'd?

I suppose at the end of the day the differences are little but the following link bears startling similarities in outcome for the supposed 'victim':

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...6908-23609294/

£11k for being raped even though there's a strong chance that an actual rape never took place! That's good honest and hard working taxpayers forking over £11k for something that is not certain to have happened. I couldn't understand WHY the allegation against me had been made and still can't quite comprehend the cruelty of it and it wasn't until I discovered the money involved (about four weeks ago I made the discovery!) that it all clicked beautifully into place for me.

The very fact there's money on the table in such loose circumstances can do nothing BUT pervert justice and result in false allegations.

Anyways... I'm venting again! Can't really help it, such a bloody disgrace of a system that exists in our so called modern democratic society...

**fighter** · 24 December 2011, 01:15 AM

it is okay to vent lawlessone, the 11K compensation is very much unfair if the accuser is not really raped! More irritating if you pay your taxes, claim no benefits from the government (really there was a time I didnt want to pay my council tax because some portion of it goes to the police!!); and here comes an accuser who is on incapacity benefits who have more money than you; have better car; bigger tv and skycable subscription, no poll tax to pay; free housing benefits; a care support worker to go groceries with her and a lot of time to think of a story of rape.

The accuser do not go for bail every few weeks and suffer the consequences of a day off work; paying parking fees; gasoline expenses to the police station and the solicitor and the stress you go through. What an unfair life; so yes we have a right to vent!!! :-)

I am not from UK; I came from a much poorer country and yet nobody falsely accused anybody of rape because there is no compensation :-) And if you lie like this, you would be ruining your life.

**Casehardened** · 24 December 2011, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by lawlessone2009 View Post

I seem to understand that in England and Wales people are arrested but then bailed to be later charged or NFA'd?

Yes, in the rest of the UK people are only charged if there is likely to be a court appearance (though it could still be dropped before trial on legal technicalities) and bail is usually granted unless there are very strong grounds for not doing so. However if the case against them appears strong enough they could be charged and remanded in custody at the time of the initial arrest and interview.

The advantage of the English system is that, unless the accused is a celebrity, there is no newsworthiness until and if there is a court appearance.

On the the other hand there is consequently no real pressure to clear the matter up and, as well-documented on this forum, folks have been left with this Sword of Damocles hanging over them for many months.

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