Sleepwalking anal rape ! What.

[Rights Fighter]

Saffron you are right of course - if she had a sore anus weeks later then this could not be due to something that happened weeks before.

When I read the initial post I was tempted to respond due to my experiences of (not anal rape but) where at a certain time we got carried away and it went "up there" unintentionally.

It's actually happened twice to me and both times I heard screaming then realised that it was me.

Both times the pain was excruciating - hence the screaming and not realising it was me at first.

I would say that it took about a fortnight before all was healed and everything back to normal.

So if this "victim" has problems 7 weeks later I would say that either she has constipation or she has indulged in some sort of sex play and regretted it.

[frankgallagherwasere]

This is a clear case of covering up something else and using it as an excuse. After all if your son is a virgin and cares about sex, his partners and what he does and how far he goes I understand him - Im like that and was at that age. There were plenty of girls who WANTED to jump into bed but I didn't. One of the things that hurts me about my own case cos I have a little more respect for women than most men do.

I think you need to try and find out who she had slept/went with inbetween the 7 weeks and try and find them for the true answer !!! someone somewhere knows whats gone on and can prove your son was innocent. Im sure he knows whether she had done it before or not or inbetween etc !! after all your not pressing charges or accusing him only to prove your sons innocence and her as being a liar.

You could/might find this out from her friends not her directly not something you'd ask her mum as she probably doesnt know nor like you calling her daughter any names that might befit her sexual habits.

And Friday is wrong, its "could the events have happened" not beyond reasonable doubt, just wish I had the Judges summings up to prove this !!

so that argement and issue is now reduced to a complete joke

[Rights Fighter]

Friday is not "wrong" as she is coming form the point of view of a real victim - I am sure her experiences would suggest that the Crown have to prove the case so the jury can be "sure" ("reasonable doubt" is no longer part of the system - the jury has to be "sure").

Obviously in some of the appeals I have worked on the jury did not have their brains in gear and can sometimes be swayed by what is going on in the media - one of PAFAA members was convicted after defence got the accuser to admit that "everything she stold the jury was wrong" and her little friend said "you can't believe a word B says, she tells lies all the time". His trial was heard the same week Maddie McCann went missing - I am sure that had a bearing on that verdict.

This happens a lot. The Birmingham trial where two members were convicted had actually come to a finding of not guilty on about half of the charges because there were provable lies told.

Where no provable lies were told (although there were some inconsistencies) they were found guilty by a 10 - 2 majority. They were found guilty on a window of opportunity - because the defendants were actually living in the family home at that time.

[frankgallagherwasere]

The words are something along the lines of, was there the opportunity for these actions or crimes to have happened.

Like whats that meant to mean - were they in the same room - house together at the same time. But then Judges sometimes spend that much time and talk that much **** does anyone actually listen to every word they say -

im keeping this very short cos I dont want anyone accusing me of going off topic BUT it is important I respond !!

[Saffron]

FG, you took the words right out of my mouth:

To both of you, FG and RF - Back On Topic Please!!!

[friday]

rf-just to clarify i wasnt saying if someone is anally raped they are no longer a virgin. of course rape does not take away virginity. i was just saying that if this girl has never had anal sex then it would have been painful. hence backing up the point that no one heard her scream or object.

of course if this case did reach court then it is possible she could say she was too scared to scream.

[Rights Fighter]

I was agreeing with you in respect of anal sex. I know that when I had my "accidents" (two of them) I heard screaming and then realised it was me as it was so excruciatingly painful. Screaming is not necessarily a voluntary action.

I don't believe that I was off-topic as we were discussing the effects of anal sex on somebody and how a jury can come to a finding of guilt, not on the evidence but merely on a window of opportunity.

If we stuck to the subject of anal v vaginal sex and virginity without relating it to how this would be dealt with at court then the thread would not have gone very far.

The OP I believe required answers that relate to the alleged offence and how it might be dealt with.

I dealt with how the matter might be dealt with by using examples that I have personally experienced.

[frankgallagherwasere]

But with regards to the actual allegation, I can't see any doctor buying anyone still being sore after 7 weeks, and nor any member of a jury. I don't think the Police are that stupid to believe it either, but I guess they wouldn't use a doctor to try and qualify and prove it - just can't see this going anywhere if only on medical grounds. Someone needs to sort this girls head out before she picks on someone and regrets her mistake.

[Rights Fighter]

I can't find any reference to "judges words" in this thread although I have quickly scrolled back to look. My mobile broadband connection is dreadful so I might have missed it while trying to be quick.

I have worked on cases where the injuries have shown several weeks/months after the alleged assault yet that has still been used against the defendant despite the fact they would not have been apparent so long after the event.

In this case the defence need to instruct an expert in anal injuries rather than gynaecological.

[frankgallagherwasere]

I am Sorry RF, I understand you are having connection problems and hope you get it resolved soon. Being without a good reliable and cheap internet connection is like not having the use of a car, makes life so much more difficult.

I agree with you on the defence doc BUT would have thought it completely impossible the crown would think they would win and consider going to trial. Are they really that stupid? oh yes well maybe they think they can mitigate it somehow? The damage to these families and the wider family in general would be unthinkable, they MUST consider that too. This is when you need a GRAN - they were always the family mediators where I come from, and no one questioned them - well only at your own peril.

[Rights Fighter]

Judging by the cases I deal with it seems the the Crown will send just about anything that shows any type of injury regardless of how long the ago the alleged assault was.

One of the appeals that recently failed I worked on - it was proved that the "injuries" found on the girl were actually normal variants at the time of the first medical exam. The inmate had been in prison for 9 months by then.

Nearly 11 months after the 1st medical examination (so 20 months after the allegations were made) more injuries were found. Could not have been the inmate as he was in prison. CA rejected the appeal as the findings at the 2nd exam indicated one incident of penetration, possibly two. The accuser said it happened about 15 times.

Appeal failed. I'm working on that one - or will be once I am sorted at my new address.

So to bring this topic back to the subject matter - it really doesn't matter how unreliable the medical evidence is - at the end of the day it is down to the jury. Best pray for a good one.

[frankgallagherwasere]

I think a lot of these appeals depend on who presents and supports them too. From what Im told one can build up a case one Barrister and another from a QC and different results would probably be given.

It is a lottery half the time which considering were talking about law is not right as it should be a yes or no answer yet very rarely is that the case. Similarly, one can go to numerous Solicitors and get different answers - it has to be clear cut??

In this case I believe the arguement comes with CPS/Defence council and whether they can with the evidence justify a trial - should it get that far. It would be an arguement Id like to be a fly on the wall - it cant hold up cos its medically impossible or should that be implausable.

Hope you get your problems sorted soon, from experience moving never really goes to plan - although the last one I had no influence over so cant be blamed !!

[Rights Fighter]

We had a brilliant barrister whose work and presentation cannot be faulted, and who has a damn good track record. It was the three old farts in wigs who refused to accept the evidence as it was presented despite agreeing that our expert must be one of the best in his field.

Their decision came down to this - did the medical evidence from our expert undermine the complainant's evidence? They said it did not.

Actually it did.

I could go on but that would detract from the subject matter of this topic.

[frankgallagherwasere]

actually RF your not off topic and I support your post as this could be relevant to this situation. After all the best time to throw your weight is before conviction not afterwards.

My intentions are not to stray off topic nor pic a fight simply to highlight the issues of professional and medical evidence and its importance and relevance to cases, accusations and potential events.

Yes appeal judges can be as stupid, bent and obstructive as any sitting judge cos there autonomous, there not above the law they are the law and often abuse their position in the name of protecting colleagues and their profession. After all there potentially overturning and questioning the views and decisions procedures and compliance of a fellow member and their own beloved system and its failures.

As they say the law can be an ass... its certainly a law unto themselves and can work in ways that defies logic and common sense. Maybe the crown should had sought a second opinion and confirmation the first doc got it right? Then one could argue it had been double checked and not fabricated.

[MaybeBoo]

Update and thanks,

Dear members and readers.

I would like to thank this forum for providing this very great service.
It has been a while now - constant stress, a shadowy cloud of paranoia, frustration and sadness.
10 days ago, I thought we finally had a result.

We resorted to the Jeremy Kyle method, without either Jeremy or the show or the grilling.
It had been ascertained a month before, that the somnambulistic anal rapist must indeed have been asleep as the lie detector showed him as telling the truth when he stated that he had not committed anything.

The accuser was not able to take the test at the same time, (a stomach ache) so after rescheduling and further huge plunging into debt, we actually got her to sit it.
It showed that she was lying.

I really did not think it would go the way it has. I naively thought that sense would prevail. That the EVIDENCE and correlation of stories, followed by analysis, questions and the application of logic may play a part in the resolution of this matter. How wrong. None of those sensible courses was permissible because of course it was too painful for her to bear - we were ruining her life enough - she was going to counseling for the rape and now wanted to ' move on with her life' whilst establishing the accusation as an accepted fact.

So instead we turned to the 21st century divination method of the day - no not the tarot or reading someones innards - the lie detector.

I took the advice here, and although was often very tempted to go to the police myself, kept it a secret from the authorities - including the school, where rumors abound - I brushed off interrogation and a straight answer with a comment that it sounded as valid a rumor as the one about the contract on the teachers.
I taped all discussions or encounters with anyone connected. I organized a private investigation by impeccably qualified ex police (this only gave a précis of the interviews and an opinion but was supposedly still progressing to this day) - went to see a psychologist to try and sort out some of the ramifications of all this on us all.

The remaining fear of course is that if this is the price of doing nothing to her!

My son has been partly vilified, but as the damage caused outweighs the vilification it is a hollow feeling.

Keep the faith and peace to all.

PS Neither my sister nor her daughter will accept the results. I had hoped to achieve that my sister would now actually look at the evidence, but she won't.
She seems to have no fear for the consequences of not finding the truth, she is only interested in believing her daughter. My son is now suicidal.


PPS. Saffron, tried to contact you via private message but I can't.