A Policeman's view on rape allegations

[sqounk]

I didn't realise that victims have say in whether or not someone is arrested, but it explains a lot.

Is there anyone whose had experience of this and/or can verify that this happens. It is shocking if this is the case - arrest decisions being made by claimants.

[Silver]

Just look in your own details for your own posts and you'll find threads with me and you in them to jog your memory. I'll look out for the opportunity to send a PM to you too.

I didn't realise that victims have say in whether or not someone is arrested, but it explains a lot.

Yes it would explain a lot the ultimate revenge from the accusers, at first I thought it some joke when the police arrived to arrest or that they had got wrong house.

Just makes me so livid

Hubby has been the ideal father, when not at work he is always home never down pub etc,I think the accusers are just jealous with our life style. And the fact that we both have professional jobs(or he did have until arrest),and they are the Jeremy Kyles of this world awaiting their lump sum settlement.

[sqounk]

Yes it would explain a lot the ultimate revenge from the accusers, at first I thought it some joke when the police arrived to arrest or that they had got wrong house.

And the fact that we both have professional jobs(or he did have until arrest),and they are the Jeremy Kyles of this world awaiting their lump sum settlement.

And it won't stop until we stop compensating people for alleging all and sundry - it is completely out of control -compensating people even if the allegation does not result in a conviction. I can't remember which country - I think it was Sweden someone was saying - removed the compensation element; claimants dropped by 70%. Funny that....

[Silver]

Apologies I went a bit off subject

What I would be interested to know with these historic cases of rape say 20+years is do the police do their ground work before an arrest is made other than speak with the accuser???(I think not)

Now with a recent event like today yesterday etc the police have to gather evidence before an arrest can be issued,
So why is it not the same with historic cases???

With my hubby's case am quite certain no paper/ground work has been done. As the OIC is now just applying for the accusers medical notes and school reports from 30 years ago, it would also have helped if they had looked on land registry to see where my hubby was living as it was certainly not where the accuser claimed(about a 300 mile difference)

This is why am very weary of the criminal justice system in relation to historical sexual abuse claims, The police/law of this country almost make a mockery of their own system, and I question how legal it is to arrest an innocent man other than one individuals word.???

It reminds me of the 17th century where by if one person thought you were a which then you were a which and no one would disagree scenario.

Very interested to hear your views, I could be wrong about the lack of evidence before arrest in historic cases however this is how it seems with my hubby's case!

[Staystrong1]

Hi there
Sounding similar to OHs FA. Lots of reasons why people make FA from years ago it is very common unfortunately in society today. Thankfully it was a voluntary interview for OH but no less traumatic, allegation from 20 plus years ago. Very difficult to defend but can be done. My experience was I have to say that the police did not Investigate to negate or legate an allegation and do not investigate the case as they do in other crimes with historic abuse, it is firmly in your hands to defend yourself with as much evidence and as robustly a possible and find an experienced solicitor/barrister to take your case forward if a charge should come. In the limbo land after allegation made I Found it helpful,to build a timeline with every detail you can think of or keep a notebook with thoughts as your mind becomes overwrought with it all. It is only if charged you get the prosecution pack and really break it down into the finer detail to,build your defence.
Absolutely shatters your world in every way but stay strong we came through the ordeal and others too on the forum have. Keep,posting and you as you know will get invaluable help here. Stay strongx

[Silver]

And it won't stop until we stop compensating people for alleging all and sundry - it is completely out of control -compensating people even if the allegation does not result in a conviction. I can't remember which country - I think it was Sweden someone was saying - removed the compensation element; claimants dropped by 70%. Funny that....

Exactly Sqounk,
I think it was a few EU countries and all noticed a 70% decline in claimants, just goes to show!,
I best not go on my face will turn a permanent blue with anger.(lol)

[Casehardened]

Playing Devil's Advocate, (and I appreciate that this is a tasteless cliche in this particular forum) in historic cases where there can be no physical evidence, only a statement by the accuser, the easiest and possibly the only way the police can commence an investigation is by interviewing the person(s) that the accuser has named.

I appreciate that all who are falsely accused feel that their investigation should not ever have started but it must be appreciated that post-Savile (where investigations did not take place) the police dare not disregard any accusation that is brought to their door.

How this investigation commences and proceeds is down to the particular circumstances: how old is the accuser now and at the time of the alleged offence?; is there likely to be evidence on computer equipment or phones?; has the accused got overseas links? These variables explain why all our experiences differ.

The only solution is to stop these accusations being made in the first place and the only way is to legislate and enforce a severe penalty for making a false accusation, unfortunately government (of all brands) policy is not to discourage accusers/victims from coming forward and it is therefore not CPS policy to prosecute young or one-off accusers (the majority) so I'm afraid this will not happen (unless the cost of prosecuting false accusations bankrupts the justice system?)

Removing financial compensation would help (as it did in Germany) but this still leaves the accusations motivated by custody, revenge, and immigration issues.

My 'Inspector Gadget' quote in my op was to illustrate that many police are equally discontented with the present system.

[Franticwithworry]

Silver - my man ended up going to court to answer to an allegation without ever being questioned by the police about the allegation and with clearly no investigative work being done. All they were interested in was gathering statements that could be used by the prosecutors. They actively refused to take a statement from someone prepared to defend him.

Casehardened - I for one have no issue at all with the police investigating every single allegation taken to them. That's their job and you will never stop false and malicious accusations. What I do take issue with is the idea of never, ever, applying a modicum of common sense, never investigating both sides thoroughly and always working on the assumption that the complainant is telling the truth.

Sometimes, it's abundantly clear right from the beginning that the accusation has no merit of the most basic enquiries are made. The police should be able to close cases that are clearly without merit without having to make everyone waste vast sums in resources getting those cases to court as a 'matter of policy', which is what is happening now. A very experienced lawyer told me that certain categories of complaint are put before a judge as a matter of course these days, regardless.

Cases are coming to court and being thrown out on the day because they are groundless. What a waste of government resources, not to mention the toll on and the expense incurred by the innocent defendant for no good reason, other than to satisfy someone's vindictiveness. There are many reasons for false accusations, but vindictiveness is always in there.

It's good to learn that some police officers are as frustrated by the system as we are. It's time we let them get back to doing the job of investigating crime, not just pushing for convictions in sexual cases, something that's coming at the expense of pursuing other crime too.

[sqounk]

Some judges apparently don't like it when a mitigating circumstance of 'revenge' is alluded to by the defence, I have been told by a legal bod. I would think that the defence would need to make sure they provide evidence to back that claim up. Saying 'she did it to get back at me' is not enough. What is the evidence?

certain categories of complaint are put before a judge as a matter of course these days, regardless.
- Frantic; are these very specific? I just wonder because there are quite a lot of NFA's and could the system cope if all allegation in a certain category went to court, regardless? Wouldn't that overwhelm the court system given the current multitude of claims?

[Franticwithworry]

Some judges apparently don't like it when a mitigating circumstance of 'revenge' is alluded to by the defence, I have been told by a legal bod. I would think that the defence would need to make sure they provide evidence to back that claim up. Saying 'she did it to get back at me' is not enough. What is the evidence?

certain categories of complaint are put before a judge as a matter of course these days, regardless.
- Frantic; are these very specific? I just wonder because there are quite a lot of NFA's and could the system cope if all allegation in a certain category went to court, regardless? Wouldn't that overwhelm the court system given the current multitude of claims?

Yes, of course, if you are postulating a motive of any kind, there has to be a clear chain of evidence to support it.

As for cases prosecuted as a matter of course, I was told that in Scotland, any allegation of a sexual nature against a minor will end up before a judge as a matter of policy. This opens the door to all sorts of ludicrousness, but believe me, the Procurator Fiscal's Office, (Scotland's equivalent of CPS), don't seem to apply common sense and the Scottish police don't seem to investigate sexual crime any more than the English authorities do.

[Silver]

Silver - my man ended up going to court to answer to an allegation without ever being questioned by the police about the allegation and with clearly no investigative work being done. All they were interested in was gathering statements that could be used by the prosecutors. They actively refused to take a statement from someone prepared to defend him.

Casehardened - I for one have no issue at all with the police investigating every single allegation taken to them. That's their job and you will never stop false and malicious accusations. What I do take issue with is the idea of never, ever, applying a modicum of common sense, never investigating both sides thoroughly and always working on the assumption that the complainant is telling the truth.

Sometimes, it's abundantly clear right from the beginning that the accusation has no merit of the most basic enquiries are made. The police should be able to close cases that are clearly without merit without having to make everyone waste vast sums in resources getting those cases to court as a 'matter of policy', which is what is happening now. A very experienced lawyer told me that certain categories of complaint are put before a judge as a matter of course these days, regardless.

Cases are coming to court and being thrown out on the day because they are groundless. What a waste of government resources, not to mention the toll on and the expense incurred by the innocent defendant for no good reason, other than to satisfy someone's vindictiveness. There are many reasons for false accusations, but vindictiveness is always in there.

It's good to learn that some police officers are as frustrated by the system as we are. It's time we let them get back to doing the job of investigating crime, not just pushing for convictions in sexual cases, something that's coming at the expense of pursuing other crime too.

Franticwithworry,
Yes Its that lack of evidence that concerns me as to how legal the law/polices motives really are???, after reading many posts about historical sexual abuse claims, it leads me to think there is a financial motive on both sides,i.e the police seem to get promotion according to the conviction rates, and as we know the accuser gets a massive pay out, if a successful conviction
I agree none of our immediate family have been interviewed, the police/legal system seem to totally rely on the bitterness of the accusers. Which is totally bias and illegal in what is meant to be a" democratic society".

[Lostandafraid]

Similar situation

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately in my case the jury incredibly found guilty and that child now has to live with what they have done and still not with a proper diagnosis of what is actually wrong with her.

This is a very interesting thread and I agree with a lot of your points casehardend.

However the bulk of my anger is directed at the police rather than at my daughter who was the FA. I fed the OIC a lot of information while my son was on bail. If they had been investigating looking at all the facts and if our case had been under continuous review as it should have been I believe there is no way it could have passed the 51% threshold. Unanimous not guilty in 1 hour! Neither prosecution witnesses gave evidence because they didn't believe daughter. A history of allegations made by daughter that professionals previously accepted as lies and which daughter retracted. I truly believe that daughter has some sort of disorder

If my daughter had been helped to explore why she was making allegations rather than being automatically believed maybe the process which continues with its own momentum could have been stalled. The police have effectively destroyed our family because of their stupidity and gullibility.

Whilst we will be forever grateful to the jury who saw the truth my son was stood in the dock hearing that they were ready for him in the cells beneath. That is complete and utter trauma because innocent people are foung guilty. It was hell for him, it was hell for me being powerless to protect him.

Although it means he has been found not guilty the person who was guilty has not faced any legal consequences. The police will no doubt just keep on putting many real victims ( those who are falsely accused ) through hell because it is politically incorrect to even countenance that someone would lie about rape. I can fully understand how innocent people end their lives because of being falsely accused. People may decide they have taken the cowards way out by not hanging around for justice.

I've been through some tough stuff in my life but this has been the worst thing ever.

[experience3]

Some judges apparently don't like it when a mitigating circumstance of 'revenge' is alluded to by the defence, I have been told by a legal bod. I would think that the defence would need to make sure they provide evidence to back that claim up. Saying 'she did it to get back at me' is not enough. What is the evidence?

certain categories of complaint are put before a judge as a matter of course these days, regardless.
- Frantic; are these very specific? I just wonder because there are quite a lot of NFA's and could the system cope if all allegation in a certain category went to court, regardless? Wouldn't that overwhelm the court system given the current multitude of claims?

Actually that is backed up by the numbers. There are often complaints by the various lobbyists that in Sexual Assault type cases, conviction rates lag well behind other types of cases, with the inference being that the police/cps arent doing their job properly and /or these cases are hard to prosecute. Actualy the reason they find it hard to ge thteir rates up is that they are prepared to prosecute extremely weak cases in relatively large numbers.

[BritInFrance]

Is it better across the channel?

Casehardened I think that is right, but actually the first order of business is to raise awareness.

The new snoopers charter being a case in point, "the people" have let this legislation go through largely unchallenged, and seating an enormous amount of extra power with the police. The rationale behind this is "I have nothing to hide".

I point out to people that i have been using the internet and sending and receiving email for 25 years. I you have all of that data and enough time and you are selective enough you can in point of fact go most of the way to proving anything you like about me, be that a rapist or the second coming of jesus. Once I tell them my experiences they are not so keen on the idea.

The question they then ask is - what do we do about terrorists? To which I reply - I dont know but since terrorists dont use open communication formats this isn't going to help! The real reason that the legislation was passed is that it legitimizes what the security services are already doing, unfortunately the legislation goes further and allows the police to do it. What we know about extra police powers is that once they have them - they cannot help but abuse them. Witness in the 1980s after city wide riots and a public enquiry the government had to restrict the Police from using "Stop Under Suspicion" powers because all the police ever did was stop a load of black kids in Brixton with a bit of puff leading to bad feeling and eventually riots. In the 2000's because of "terrorism" they had to have "Stop and Search" powers back. This lead to bad feeling apparently cause all they ever used these powers for was stopping a load of black kids in Brixton to catch them with a bit of puff!

The way forward therefore is not to get a petition going but to convince all of your friends that when the authorities say they need more powers to "combat terrorism", what they mean is they just want more powers. What they will probably use them for is to nick you for putting the wrong trash in the wrong bin and raise a few quid

I saw this older reference to the Civil Law sytem as better in terms of police investigative process .... i live in France, my son has been falsely accused ...frankly,I recognize most of the issues described in the UK ... practically, the Civil Law cobtextbdoes not change the police «*triage*» and investigation process, since the police decide whether the case goes or not to the examining judge...