i may be naive but how exactly do cases get convictions without evidence?

[mouse]

Naive no...

Hi Rights Fighter,
Yes the appeal was run by Senior Counsel and Barrister, both very experienced and well respected - both very disturbed by what they felt was now a dangerous precedent being set ( jury finding their own version from evidence not presented but compromising on a common ground.) I thought, as did they that any doubt they had should have been transferred to the other counts. That certainly was not the case and the NSWCCA went to great lengths to reconcile the verdicts, even in the face of such overwhelming inconsistencies. I then was forced to undertake an 18 month sentence - one that was very stressful for, not only me but my family as well. My wife, who was a police officer, was harassed at work by senior officers whilst I was in custody. I was threatened with having to do my full four year sentence if I did not address my offending behaviour and undertake a therapeutic program. Of course you had to confess your crime as far as addressing the offending behaviour - and if you deny the offence, your guilty as you are in denial - they could do anything to you as you were found guilty and of course treated that way. So I refused to do the program as I could not sell my soul to get early release. But a Corrections Officer collapsed directly in front of my in role call and I immediately commenced first aid. (hard habit to break from all those years protecting the public) Now all of that was placed on my custody file and all of a sudden, I was informed I would in fact be released on my earliest release date. When I was released, I then commenced investigating my matter. And oh boy did I blow her version of events clear apart. Not only did her best friend completely disinegrate her version, he also informed me via an official statement that this woman was in a relationship with the police officer who she was supposed to have confided the assault to. Then he advised me that she had slept with a female student five days after the alleged assault (this woman was a self confessed bi-sexual) and he gave names, times, dates and places. When I submitted this evidence, the Crown thought it serious enough to forward this evidence to the Crown Advocate, the highest level of Crown in the state of NSW -to get advice of the Crown Advocate whether the complainant had committed perjury - and then the cover up started. The Judge hearing my application for review of conviction was changed - changed to a judge that does sentence matters (i.e a judge that can justify a conviction). The Crown Advocate placed forward that the evidence I found was hearsay and opinion that would not be admissible if my matter went to retrial, therefore it should be dismissed - but nothing about the fact she had lied - not one word. Then the evidence from the Head Forensic Physician for the Victorian Police Force. Now you could not get a person more objective than a man who gives opinion for law enforcement could you - wrong. The accepted the evidence of an emergency department on call doctor whose specialty is anaesthesia over three that I submitted, a specialist Police forensic doctor, a specialist gyno and the Head Lecturer of the College of Nursing - an a specialist in womens health, all of whom stated that the vaginal abrasion - the only injury this woman suffered in a long, violent and protracted assault, all agreed was not from any type of penetration and was not one caused at the time of the alleged assault but was caused closer to the time of the examination. Now not only did the emergency department doctor breach all examination protocols but he did not conduct an internal examination (bearing in mind that there was evidence now that she spent the night with her partner the night before the examination) and the reason why was the complainant stated she was too sore. The experts that I put forward stated that there was no reason why she could not have an internal done and stated that she was not, on the evidence placed forward, dibilitated or disabled in any fashion after the alleged assault. They stated that if the complainant was too sore to be examined on Monday, then the injuries suffered on the night would have been so severe that she could not physically move - but the Court stated she was disabled as was her evidence. The sad thing was the evidence from her friends was that she had no physical injury, was not disabled, one stated she was on a stage dancing like a slut (this was in fact stated in Court) and the other stated she was dancing with six men, touching each others bodies and then walked 1.5km home, was not in pain, did not complain of any pain (and incidently was wearing tight pants with no underwear) and none of that evidence went anywhere either. The Judge hearing the application for review went to great pains to say that the evidence should have been submitted at trial and other evidence was irrelevant as it was hearsay -he agreed with the Crown Advocate that the evidence was inadmissible and threw out my application. I showed all and sun dry that this womans evidence was all lies - to the point where the Crown even submitted it to the highest level of the Crown for adjudication regarding perjury and yet I still have this stain. And everything that I write on here is documented and has been presented to the NSW Supreme Court. So sadly, the system would rather threw me to the sewer rather than admit that this woman lied. They all went to great pains to shoot me down and the only thing that will save me now is if she confesses. Now what are the chances of that. My fear, my greatest fear is that I will have this stain on my name forever. These records will last longer than me and it will say I am a rapist. Truth be known that scares me more than I can put into words. And this woman has no compunction whatsoever to put on a police officer's uniform and go to work, lock people up and know with every inch of her being that her lies put an innocent man in gaol.

They are not protecting her, they are protecting their own prominent positions and the perception given to the public that our, 'justice systems' work.
This club culture with them all protecting each others backs and banding together not to overturn convictions if humanly possibly is to protect this perception of justice and their own positions nothing more.
Unless you become caught up in the system you don't know its failings, so the billions of people in our Countries out there are kept in ignorance & its only through forums and such like we can get the message out. Fortunately the internet has been born and whilst it may not happen in my lifetime the tide is turning.
TO EVERYONE - WHENEVER YOU CAN, ON THE NET/in the NEWS, GET THE MESSAGE OUT THERE, OUR JUSTICE & POLICE SYSTEM IS CORRUPT.

[desertorkid]

i came on here looking for advice and now this scaremongering has worried me immensely. Judging by these comments my son is already convicted. My sister is a policewoman. I trust her. I have to trust the system. But if the system is always corrupt from top to bottom, then what's the point of fighting??

[Rights Fighter]

Read other posts not just this type of comment.

It is worth fighting otherwise you have nothing.

[LS]

Unfortunately, innocence or guilt does not come into the judicial system in this country today. It is about the odds of securing a conviction. If the Crown Prosecution Service deems that there is more than a 50% chance of a conviction, then charging ensues and you wait for a trial date. Regardless of if you are innocent or guilty.
It is about what evidence "exists" which helps pad the case out against you. The best to hope for is that it is NFA'd and doesn't go to trial, because the jury system here is pathetic, when they are often made up of bigots and people with preconceived ideas, and will often ignore lies told by the accuser, even when they're caught red-handed.

I'm sorry if that causes you immense worry, but that is how it is. I've got a conviction against my name for something I didn't do, despite she and hers telling lies in court, being caught out, yet the jury ignored it all and pronounced me guilty and wrecked my life.
I would rather tell people how it is, than to pretend it's all fair and sweet.

As RF says, you have to fight because if you don't, then they win.

[Verity]

Take control now!!!

Hi desertorkid,

That is the whole point hun of why we have to fight or else the judiciary will continue with this injustice.

It is good that your sister is a policewoman.
She should have the latest copy of PACE with the appropriate amendments.
Get hold of a copy and go through Code C and especially Code G, focusing on nessecity of arrest.

Make sure the police adhere to the rules of PACE to the letter.

You must take control of your son's case.
Do not take no for an answer.
Gather every scrap of evidence you can to build a defence for your son.
Get your son to obtain his custody record and write to the duty solicitor asking for the attendance notes, initial disclosure notes and the notes taken by the duty solicitor during the interview.

That will give you a starting point.
Read through all paperwork and documents line by line with your son.
Highlight all inconsistancies, discrepancies, lies and then find evidence where you can from FB etc.
Did your son get a reciept for the items seized and does it state the grounds on which they were seized given that this is an allegation of a historical nature.

Learn the relevent codes of PACE PDQ.
It will stand you in good stead as you will be able to ask relevent questions and it will soon be realised you are not going to stand by and allow your son to be railroaded by a target driven system that is abusing power, procedure and process.

Get angry and let your maternal instincts guard your cub against this predator as a lioness protects her cub.

Read Worried and Midnight's thread.
Her Grandson was falsely accused by an ex-girlfriend and between us we tore her tale apart.

If you live anywhere near London get in touch with:
Gerry McDonald
EBR Attridge
436 High Road
Tottenham
London
N17 9BJ

Mob: 07779 239708
e-mail: gerrymcdonald@ebrattridge.com
Office: 020 880 80774 (24hrs)

Website: www.ebrattridge.com

They have offices in Tottenham and Holborn as well as Manchester.
Look up details on the website.

Say Mark recomended him to you.
Gerry has dealt with Mark's and Worried and Midnight's grandson's case very successfully.
Ask Worried and Midnight about him.
Take control and get bloody angry!!

[Midnight and Worried]

Thanks Verity,

I have posted on the other thread but I will just add my thoughts,not really on the Judicial System as luckily we didn't get that far,but on Police ''Procedure'',reminding you that I was once married to a Police Officer.

Things have changed now compared to when I was wed,in the old days the Police would arrest someone on suspicion,investigate and then decide themselves if a charge should be brought.

Nowadays they are merely evidence gatherers for the CPS so they will investigate and obtain any relevant forensic - all of this will then go to the CPS who will look at the evidence offered and if the CPS believe that they have a good chance of a conviction they will instruct the Police to go ahead and charge.

I have been told that the investigating officer can offer his opinion to the CPS and believe that in my Grandson's case I had a good honest officer who was n ot interested in targets or the conviction rate but just told it as he saw it.

I actually had a couple of conversations with him after my Grandson was NFA'd and he said that he believed him from the outset but merely had to follow procedure and I had to endure months of anxiety from which I am only now recovering.

I hope that your Son is being dealt with by a similar officer,one who is only concerned with the truth.

[Verity]

The most mportant question to ask is:
What is her motive?

The most important evidence to find is:

THE MOTIVE, MOTIVE, MOTIVE, MOTIVE
And then make sure all who need to know it, KNOW IT and don't let them forget it.

[mouse]

conviction without evidence

Where sex offences are concerned the prosecution do not have to produce factual or hard evidence , all they need to do is provide the jury with a scenario that could have happened. Juries do not want to be seen to let a sex offender off and are already prejudiced by the hysteria that has been developed in this Country by media hype over the few really bad cases such as Soham. Its enough for prosecution to show that person A knew B. Person A at some time was alone with B. Person A had opportunity to do what was alleged by B. let Juries imagination fill in the blanks. Juries do not have to account for their decision, or how they came to that decision and more and more it is being seen that outside influences are affecting Jury decoisions.
This is not scaremongering, its to open your eyes to the fact that if you don't fight to prove your innocence then you will lose, because the justice system and the police will not do it for you, and don't rely on your solicitor, they can only do so much and rely on your input. Most people accused make the biggest mistake of thinking because they are innocent they don't need a solicitor and the more they tell the police the more obvious it will be that they are innocent and it will go away. The more you tell the police the more they have to circumvent the truth with. I'm generalising not all coppers are bad, but are human and need convictions and the least line of resistance. I have known where a rape suspect gave police evidence to prove he could not have committed offence on day alleged, only to find later her statement had been changed to a different day as she had made a mistake? Good luck, but you have to make it. Good solicitors are normally small Companies who specialise, in general the big boys will pass the bulk of the work to a junior who without the experience can miss important issues. One such good solicitor is Ennon and Co, Finsbury Park, London.

[mouse]

conviction without evidence

Collating evidence for your defence. I would suggest, like you see on police programs you draw a time line. Then go down that line in chronological order and enter all the salient information. Provide all information to your solicitor in chronological order so they can easily see the sequence of events. Consider if photographs, maps or drawings will help your case, remember your solicitor does not know the area where the allegations are supposed to have taken place. Do you need to check bus/train times, weather conditions etc. Its silly things that get forgotten so check statements thoroughly, eg, 'he climbed through window' ...check how big window was, get pics, prove it couldn't have happened that way......Hope this helps, it really is down to you.

[Casehardened]

mouse makes some really good points, not the least being that the accused must set out their own defence. The solicitor (and barrister, should the matter get that far) will then have something to work with. In this age of reductions in legal aid it is not realistic to expect the solicitor to do investigative work (as to the whys and wherefores of the accusation) as well as fronting the defence, they will probably have several other clients on the go, whilst the accused has only the one.

As is frequently mentioned the police are only investigating on behalf of the accuser, OTOH if anything detrimental to the accuser can be dug up (mental health issues, family problems, previous accusations, any promiscuity) it is well worth passing this on to the OIC. None of it may be admissable in court but it could well influence the CPS in their decision as whether or not to prosecute. As mentioned, the perception of the jury is pivotal, and so the relative merits of the accuser and accused as witnesses will be a factor in their considerations.

[jillyanne53]

i thought the same

yes i understand that there are people on this site that have been wrongly accused and sent down but how? my experience of the system has been that to get a conviction you would basically need a police officer watching.

even with injuries which were documented by child protection, a witness who i had not previously known who saw me after the rape (and thus confirmed my distress directly after the incident) and a report from a nurse who saw the injuries and encouraged me to report it he still got away with it. for now at least (it was a hung jury so awaiting retrial).

so how do people with only one persons word against the other get convicted?

i have just been involved in a historical sexual abuse trial and i could not believe what happened.to answer your question,the jury decides,the public outcry over lenient sentences leads the authorities to collude to gain a conviction.in these cases its the accusers word against the defendant and the authorities know that they are guaranteed a conviction.juries are not prepared to listen to the defendants side,and the few that are are persuaded otherwise by fellow jurors to get home quicker.yes i also believed in justice but no longer and i for one am appalled.

[Verity]

Hi jillyanne53,

Spot on!! You are so right. It is only when someone has been put through the system that the horrible realisation and reality hits.
It is high time that the public stopped having this insular blind faith in the justice system.
That's probably how it came to be corrupt in the first place, we the public let it.

[utterlydestroyed]

i came on here looking for advice and now this scaremongering has worried me immensely. Judging by these comments my son is already convicted. My sister is a policewoman. I trust her. I have to trust the system. But if the system is always corrupt from top to bottom, then what's the point of fighting??

After my recent experiences in the last six years involving dozens of police officers,,,THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SERVING POLICE OFFICER I WOULD TRUST TODAY due to the corruption, dishonesty & prejudice I have personally encountered & observed from multiple officers I can name & identify

BUT... desertokid there is EVERY point in fighting...for what is right!

Just DO NOT trust even for the slightst ANY police officer!

[psychotic]

wow.... reading this is crazy

reading this makes me really depressed... i don't know what to do now

[LS]

Hi psychotic

It shouldn't make you depressed, but it should make you more aware of how it is. Most of us were brought up to believe the police are the last defence to stop false claims reaching a court. It used to be that they would be the ones who would see sense and investigate claims to see if they were true or not.

The reality is that they now regard ALL allegations as true and just collect enough evidence to get them to court.

It's a whole lot more depressive to find what you've been brought up to believe is just wrong.