i may be naive but how exactly do cases get convictions without evidence?

[Rights Fighter]

Did you submit the grounds for appeal yourself or did you go this using a barrister?

I ask as I submitted grounds for appeal for one of my group members which was rejected by the Single Judge (who gives leave or not as the case may be) at the Courts of Appeal here in London.

I refused to give up and showed the same evidence to a barrister who substantiate the grounds of appeal - and we succeeded (appeal allowed) using exactly the same evidence but changing the substance of the grounds, on November 6th last year.

[Not Guilty]

Appeal was dismissed

Hi Rights Fighter,
Yes the appeal was run by Senior Counsel and Barrister, both very experienced and well respected - both very disturbed by what they felt was now a dangerous precedent being set ( jury finding their own version from evidence not presented but compromising on a common ground.) I thought, as did they that any doubt they had should have been transferred to the other counts. That certainly was not the case and the NSWCCA went to great lengths to reconcile the verdicts, even in the face of such overwhelming inconsistencies. I then was forced to undertake an 18 month sentence - one that was very stressful for, not only me but my family as well. My wife, who was a police officer, was harassed at work by senior officers whilst I was in custody. I was threatened with having to do my full four year sentence if I did not address my offending behaviour and undertake a therapeutic program. Of course you had to confess your crime as far as addressing the offending behaviour - and if you deny the offence, your guilty as you are in denial - they could do anything to you as you were found guilty and of course treated that way. So I refused to do the program as I could not sell my soul to get early release. But a Corrections Officer collapsed directly in front of my in role call and I immediately commenced first aid. (hard habit to break from all those years protecting the public) Now all of that was placed on my custody file and all of a sudden, I was informed I would in fact be released on my earliest release date. When I was released, I then commenced investigating my matter. And oh boy did I blow her version of events clear apart. Not only did her best friend completely disinegrate her version, he also informed me via an official statement that this woman was in a relationship with the police officer who she was supposed to have confided the assault to. Then he advised me that she had slept with a female student five days after the alleged assault (this woman was a self confessed bi-sexual) and he gave names, times, dates and places. When I submitted this evidence, the Crown thought it serious enough to forward this evidence to the Crown Advocate, the highest level of Crown in the state of NSW -to get advice of the Crown Advocate whether the complainant had committed perjury - and then the cover up started. The Judge hearing my application for review of conviction was changed - changed to a judge that does sentence matters (i.e a judge that can justify a conviction). The Crown Advocate placed forward that the evidence I found was hearsay and opinion that would not be admissible if my matter went to retrial, therefore it should be dismissed - but nothing about the fact she had lied - not one word. Then the evidence from the Head Forensic Physician for the Victorian Police Force. Now you could not get a person more objective than a man who gives opinion for law enforcement could you - wrong. The accepted the evidence of an emergency department on call doctor whose specialty is anaesthesia over three that I submitted, a specialist Police forensic doctor, a specialist gyno and the Head Lecturer of the College of Nursing - an a specialist in womens health, all of whom stated that the vaginal abrasion - the only injury this woman suffered in a long, violent and protracted assault, all agreed was not from any type of penetration and was not one caused at the time of the alleged assault but was caused closer to the time of the examination. Now not only did the emergency department doctor breach all examination protocols but he did not conduct an internal examination (bearing in mind that there was evidence now that she spent the night with her partner the night before the examination) and the reason why was the complainant stated she was too sore. The experts that I put forward stated that there was no reason why she could not have an internal done and stated that she was not, on the evidence placed forward, dibilitated or disabled in any fashion after the alleged assault. They stated that if the complainant was too sore to be examined on Monday, then the injuries suffered on the night would have been so severe that she could not physically move - but the Court stated she was disabled as was her evidence. The sad thing was the evidence from her friends was that she had no physical injury, was not disabled, one stated she was on a stage dancing like a slut (this was in fact stated in Court) and the other stated she was dancing with six men, touching each others bodies and then walked 1.5km home, was not in pain, did not complain of any pain (and incidently was wearing tight pants with no underwear) and none of that evidence went anywhere either. The Judge hearing the application for review went to great pains to say that the evidence should have been submitted at trial and other evidence was irrelevant as it was hearsay -he agreed with the Crown Advocate that the evidence was inadmissible and threw out my application. I showed all and sun dry that this womans evidence was all lies - to the point where the Crown even submitted it to the highest level of the Crown for adjudication regarding perjury and yet I still have this stain. And everything that I write on here is documented and has been presented to the NSW Supreme Court. So sadly, the system would rather threw me to the sewer rather than admit that this woman lied. They all went to great pains to shoot me down and the only thing that will save me now is if she confesses. Now what are the chances of that. My fear, my greatest fear is that I will have this stain on my name forever. These records will last longer than me and it will say I am a rapist. Truth be known that scares me more than I can put into words. And this woman has no compunction whatsoever to put on a police officer's uniform and go to work, lock people up and know with every inch of her being that her lies put an innocent man in gaol.

[frankgallagherwasere]

But she is a women POLICE officer, it would be more of a purprise if she didn't lie, isnt disception all part of their training to gain convictions - well it is in the UK !!!

If a well informed Police Officer cant fight and win justice there cant be much hope for the ordinary man in the street now can there? Although I do find the situation of her having a relationship with an officer involved in the case somewhat a conflict of interest, they would have to appoint officer from elsewhere who didnt know the parties involved??? well something like that.

In business one cant be accused and sacked without evidence or you would sue for wrongfull dismissal, yet in law hearsay and anyones word is enough to completely destroy you and damn you for life. Something wrong somewhere and there has to be a reason - maybe as Ive stated before its just a gravetrain for all those involved, and I do mean all of them.

[Rights Fighter]

In Mr Kaz's appeal it was a male officer who shouted in the Court of Appeal that counsel for the Crown (who is a woman) should FIND an argument against our grounds. She fought back - she could not.

In a PAFAA member's trial it was a MALE officer who lied on the stand and was SHOWN to be lying.

I really do pity you FG.

[frankgallagherwasere]

Our officers were only asked their names and never a single question about the case or their investigation - therefore they never had the opportunity to lie !!

[Rights Fighter]

That would have been a waste of the court's time. I cannot believe that officers went up to the witness box and asked to confirm their names - and that was it. If this is true then I would love to see the trial transcripts echoing this.

[frankgallagherwasere]

It was just to confirm who they were before they read out the manipulated edited transcripts. They were not asked a single question related to the case or their investigation or why other evidence hadn't been obtained - other witness statements. I had even prepared questions for the Solocitor to give to my Barrister to ask them - completely ignored like all the rest. Dont forget I never sat down with my Solicitor to go through the statements I was left in a room to look at them on my own, I never sat with her to discuss the case whatsoever - she had complete control and input into it.

I think CPS should also have been asked why further investigation wasnt undertaken on some aspects of the evidence being considered - but then that would mean them doing their job properly.

[Not Guilty]

Greatest Travesty of All

Sadly, as I have said, I had to do serious gaol time, had a heart attack, was sent to one of the most dangerous gaols in Australia (Long Bay Gaol Sydney) and there told that the Corrections officer could not guarantee my safety, lived with constant threats and abuse, I could go on - and nightmares, my god the thoughts in my mind were not those of a sane individual. But there were two things that made me want to come out the other side and fight, 1 was my wife and daughter and the other was a burning desire to fight. It took me four years to put a mammoth submission to the NSW Supreme Court and what I did to give the evidence I found credence was that I used only Police experts and that way the Crown could not say that I "expert shopped" as is the case in the US Judicial system and sadly becoming part of ours. Now the evidence of the relationship did not come out until after my sentence. Sadly alot of the evidence did not come out - now when I complained about all of her lies, it was all dismissed as trivial (now bear in mind the Crown ahd already placed the evidence forward for an adjudication in regards to perjury.) Now she and her male partner sat on the bench and lied and lied and lied, and I didn't know until after I served my sentence. My argument was that if that evidence had been before the original jury, since they had already found consent out of her evidence of non-consent, the fact that she lied and been caught out lying and had her behavious described directly after this event as "sluttish" well it would have been an entirely different ball game. But the greatest travesty is that my wife planned a family holiday to the USA. I applied for a Visa and declared what had happpened - visa refused. I asked for a review and it has been sent to the Department of Homeland Security. That was in May, we travel out in four weeks. They say don't make travel plans until after you receive your veisa, but I had not nominate date of travel, return and where I am staying etc for the review - so we have paid all of this money only to now have to wait and see if I am actually going to be eligible to travel. The trip of a lifetime with my wife and daughter to Disneyland but because of the lies and the stain, my family will suffer the total humiliation of having to go overseas without me because I am supposed to not be a fit and proper person to enter. I have placed things forward on my own behalf and now will have to wait - that is the greatest travesty of all - continual punishment for a crime I did not even commit.

[frankgallagherwasere]

As you will have read, things are no better in the UK and the damage and effects innocent people and families suffer is exactly the same !! The only thing that keeps many in one piece is their families - else many would simply lose it, and some do as those of us who have been inside have witnessed.

The law has no interest in the truth and justice just its 3rd party interests and the benefits those involved gain, with a bit of state propoganda. Your case has been replicated many times in the UK as Im sure it has elsewhere in the world - many innocent people currently live in silence of the harm being done to them by those whom advocate democracy, a free society and whom have killed many thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere around the world in the so called name of fighting terrorists.

The problem of course is almost everyone is too scared to raise their game and take direct action having already witnessed and suffered the injustice the state to deliver - how knows what they would do next......... anything is possible and probable. One thing for sure, none of it is in the name of justice.

Now you can see and witness exactly what damage is done to innocent people by others we previously thought were there to uphold the law - not manipulate it for their own self interest. Many be you should use your skills and energy to expose and fight the system - or atleast those whom are bent inside it.

[LS]

i may be naive but how exactly do cases get convictions without evidence?

It is all too easy when you have a jury made up of specimens like this one:

""A TEENAGE juror escaped jail for contempt of court after she sent text messages to a fellow juror claiming that a defendant she was trying was a paedophile.
Danielle Robinson, 19, wept as she was accused of “childish and silly” behaviour.
She had risked wrecking two trials at a cost to taxpayers of £50,000. But she was let off with a severe dressing down and an eight-month suspended prison sentence.
Hull Crown Court heard Robinson’s fellow juror was trying a theft case in an adjoining court last week.
In gross breach of jury rules, Robinson texted the woman, saying: “He’s been in prison before and is a paedo.”
The other juror had earlier tried to prevent any dialogue about her trial. Robinson had first texted: “Hi it’s Danielle from court. Are you doing the kid’s case?” The woman replied: “I can’t talk to you.”
Despite the warning, Robinson sent her the “paedo” message. The single mother had picked up the piece of gossip at a shop. It was pure fabrication. Her fellow juror told a court bailiff and both were discharged. But it was decided to continue the trials without them.
Robinson, of Hull, spent some time in the court cells before being charged. Paul Genney, defending, said the two jurors had become friendly during their jury service. He said: “This is a young, immature lady, delighted to be on a jury, not someone who set out to deliberate engage in jury tampering.
“It was a stupid thing to do rather than a wicked thing to do. She is very immature.” But Judge Roger Thorn, QC, said he had no doubt that Robinson intended to interfere with the other jury’s verdict.
He said: “What is the purpose of sending a text message saying someone has been to prison or that he is a paedophile if she did not want to see him convicted? You blatantly breached instructions about no communication with others. You have let down your own generation.”
But he added: “I draw back from sending you to jail. I don’t think you are likely to do it again.”
Judge Thorn recommended that her fellow juror should be awarded £200 from public funds for raising the alarm.""
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...ing-two-trials

The worrying aspect of it is, what if the recipient of her texts had been either like-minded or not honest/public-spirited? Someone would now be labelled something which they are not. This is a prime example of when a dimwit allows emotions to overrule the evidence put before them, and sadly there are thousands like this idiot on juries every day.

[Saffron]

Twelve good men and true?
Don't make me laugh. More like twelve people who are either students, unemployed or retired and therefore don't have to tolerate the loss of income that goes with Jury Service.

Serving on a jury pays you minimum wage. Your employer is not obliged to pay you your normal salary for the standard 2 weeks of jury service.

I have said elsewhere on this forum (a few years ago now) that I know a man who was drafted for Jury Service. He is an architect, an intelligent, compassionate, socially-aware man. At the time he earned over £18 per hour working as an architect with a major London practice. He learned that to undertake jury service he would be paid minimum wage. His employer said they would pay him full wage if he took the jury service as annual leave, otherwise he would only be entitled to the minimum wage as outlined in governmental and employment law policies. This man had a wife and two young children to support. He therefore asked to be excused from Jury Service, but was told that financial considerations are not sufficient to be excluded from your social duty. So he did his two weeks. He encountered such bigoted and irrational/unreasonable opinions from his fellow jurors that the entire experience left him feeling sick to his stomach.

Similarly my God Mum did jury service a while ago. She was appalled by the comments made by the jury, comments such as "Well he must have done it, he's black" and "I'll go with the majority verdict because I want to play golf this afternoon".

Trial by jury does sometimes work. But for crying out loud, let's use a better juror selection system than the "lucky dip" we currently employ.

[mouse]

Motive

Hi Guys,
I have been having a real hard time lately and thought I would get on to the site and read. This gives me a chance to at least try and help people understand how this sort of thing happens. I can answer your questions from both sides of the fence. Being a police officer for such a long time, I was able to locate and produce evidence at Court in a number of sexual assault matters. But I did investigate two false allegations of sexual assault and both matters had glaring deficiences and produced a large motive to lie on both counts. That is they key to every sexual assault allegation - motive to lie. That is why it is essential for all parties concerned when they have been falsely accused to find out why they have been accused. There has to be a reason. I enlisted the assistance of a Criminal Profiler from the United States - Brent Turvey. This man has written books with New York Police Officers about how to better investigate sexual assault matters. But because of his investigations, he is also in a greater position to profile matters and determine whether it is a false complaint and motives to lie. The motive is usually contained in the evidence of complaint. Now putting on my other hat and being one who was imprisoned for a false complaint of sexual assault, one thing that was not attacked at my trial was motive to lie. It is easy to say that someone is lying, but harder to prove. That is why I would leave no stone unturned when it comes to discovering motive. In my matter the woman had alot to loose and chose to accuse me rather than loose her position at the NSW Police Academy. My life has been destroyed because of a job and it is a sad realisation that I live with - or should I say exist with.
I placed an application to the Supreme Court for a review of my conviction based on very positive evidence that I had located. Now I don't know about the UK system, but in Australia to have a conviction overturned is rare as the system will only interupt a conviction when there has been a substantial miscarriage of justice. Now to show you how stupid the system is, in my matter the woman presented to a doctor four days after the allegation date and stated I injured her vagina. The Doctor (who was on call and was a specialist anaesthetist) stated her injuries were consistent with her story. When I put in my submission for a review of conviction, I was able to provide evidence from the Senior Forensic Physician with the Victorian Police Force that stated he has never in all his career seen injuries as described be present after four days and went into a very scientific reason as to why the injuries were not caused four days earlier and are not those seen in any sexual assault. The Senior Crown Solicitor stated in his reply that "whilst the injuries suffered now cannot be excluded as having been occasioned at some other time, this does not interfere with the guilty verdict." Now here is a Crown official who is stating that the injuries I was supposed to have caused weren't occasioned at the time - but that doesn't mean I am not guilty of the offences - and the Supreme Court agreed. I, along with all of the experts (there were three) found the findings totally perverse. But the most perverse about this is the alleged victim stated that after this alleged assault, she went to a nightclub, stayed a short time, did not drink alcohol, danced but could not move because of the injuries and the pain. But I contacted her best friend and questioned him in relation to this matter about the alleged victims evidence. This is the actual evidence that was presented to the NSW Supreme Court (names have been blanked out)

"A very short time later I told **** that we needed to go home to which she stated to me, “Let’s stay and enjoy the rest of the night.” For the next two (2) hours or so I saw **** smiling, laughing dancing on the stage of Dingo’s. At one stage I only saw **** with at least six (6) OSG or SPG personnel (Sworn Police Officers) dancing on the stage. I saw that she was straddling one male’s leg whilst another was close behind. All persons dancing were touching each other bodies. I didn’t look to me that **** was in any pain what so ever. Later that night we walked home from Dingo’s to **** unit in Church Street Goulburn. The distance would be about 1km to 1.5km and we oth walked it. **** did not complain or show any signs of pain whilst walking home.”

Now the alleged victim stated she was injured, and I produced evidence that it was physically and scientifically impossible to have such injuries. She stated she was injured and could not dance and was upset because of the alleged assault. Now when you read the observations of her friend (who is a serving police officer) her behaviour is not that of a bona fide complainant. The Court said she was entitled to act whatever way she wanted as it was after the alleged assault - but it didn't matter that never once was her evidence consistent and she was caught out lying in her evidence but that never mattered.

The point I make and will continually make is that once a conviction is returned, the only way it will ever be overturned is if the woman admits she has lied. Now what do you think the chances are of that. That is why no stone can be left unturned. The allegation made against me was 19 September 2001 and now nearly seven years on, I still have nightmares, still simply exist and put my head on my pillow every night knowing the woman lied and put me in gaol for a crime I know I didn't commit and sadly she knows I didn't commit. For everyone that is accused, life can never be the same. It is a stain that can never be erased but the people that make the allegations will continue with their lives oblivious to the repercussions of their lies.

Leave no stone unturned. Have a say in your defence. Whilst the solicitors do the talking, it is you that does the time if the verdict goes the wrong way. And there is still one misconception that is out in the community - that a woman would never lie and go through all of this just to make a false complaint. This is reflected in the jury room and that is why finding positive and admissible evidence of motive to lie must be found.

And I would be only to happy to help anyone that is in this most harrowing position.

And embrace all those whom love you. I could not have gone on (and it is amazing what thoughts go through your mind) if it wasn't for the love and committment of my beautiful wife.

Good luck to you all.

The giving of cash handouts as compensation in the UK is more than enough to get people to lie. When I was in prison police trawled people there who had been in childrens homes telling them they would get payouts if they had been abused? Until we get rid of the compensation culture then false allegations will continue and real victims will suffer. It's been proved that there are better ways to help victims than cash handouts, although the latter is easier & short term.

[mouse]

Motive

Dear Not Guilty

Anyone who has read my postings will know what I think of the corruption in the UK police in the way they deal with false allegations. However, 'not guilty', your tragic story moved me.

In particular your sound & clearly knowledgeable advice as an x-police officer regarding the 'need to establish motive' aspect on the part of the false accuser.

In the UK there is far to much misguided respect & deference paid towards the police and the mistaken UK public belief that they (police) will honestly 'investigate'? with 'integrity & impartiality' both sides of an allegation. Too many victims of false allegation, as RF regularily tells us, know to their bitter cost after the event that is not the case.

It worries me the number of people who seemingly 'blindly' invest faith in a 'duty solicitor' (I was fortunate with mine, plus I knew following my arrest, to get the eyewitness statements before police could corrupt the evidence or bully & intimidate the witnesses. IT HAPPENS!) & folly of belief the 'police', will rightfully clear them from a false allegation, because they, (as the real victim) know the truth of their inocence.

Please, DO NOT sit back and let the system grind along.

Please, SEEK OUT information, evidence, witnesses, & as made clear by 'NOT GUILTY', seek out the motive on the part of the vile false accuser.

...and DO NOT hand it over to police, as RF has previously made plain, witnesses statements & evidence to prove ones inocence have a nasty habit of ...disappearing once in police hands.

The stain of false allegation (let alone a false conviction) does indeed mare one for life...and in my own personal experience, there are corrupt police who will continue to abuse you long, long after others think it it is all over for you.

I will endorse everything 'utterly destroyed' says above, most important get to your witnesses before the police, don't sit back and wait for your solicitor or you may find your witnesses become police witnesses and are just not called to help you.

[mouse]

If you don't fight your corner, no one else will

I am probably in the most unenviable position, having arrested people and having been arrested - having investigated false complaints and having one made against me. Now I can safely say in my matter, the weirdest part of all was the jury found there was consent and consent was withdrawn. But then how is it that the complainant stated there was no consent at all at any time. So the jury believed me when I said there was consent but for the life of me, no one can explain when, where and how consent was withdrawn as that was not her evidence. So how did I get convicted - simple - because no one will believe, not even in the face of evidence that shows she had lied, that some one will lie - that is the one thing that I did not hammer home and should have. But the solicitior informed me that if I attack the alleged victim, I will look bad to the jury - sorry, but I already looked bad to the jury because I had been arrested and charged - now standing before them charged with an offence that people find reprehensible. So for god's sake, if any of you can listen, those who have to face court, listen now, MOTIVE MOTIVE MOTIVE - find it, investigated it, leave no stone unturned. This incident happened eight years ago, I still have nightmares, still cannot go into places like service stations or shops when there is a lone female for fear she will make an allegation. Life after an allegation, you live in constant fear, you are scared 24/7 because it has happened once before, you know lies put you away, you are waiting for someone to do it again. And why, because it was so easy for the woman in my matter to lie and easy for her to say I did something to her and easy for a Court to accept there was consent and it was withdrawn even though that was not the Crowns case, see my point, things can be changed, can be explained, can be thrown out - once a conviction is recorded, you have more chances of walking on water than getting it overturned. So fight and don't leave any stone unturned. Don't sit back and hope that a jury will see through lies. In my matter, there were ten different documented versions and she got caught out that many times - it did not matter. It matters to no one, evidence can be changed testimony altered, victims coached prior to giving their evidence. Fight like there is no tomorrow, because if you don't your tomorrow could end up behind bars.

Cannot emphasise enough how important 'not guilty's' comments are, remember your Barrister/solicitor get paid regardless of the result....you must do all you can to fight your side, get to your witnesses before police, don't tell police information, it will get lost, used against you, & find that motive and investigate it.
If you read other posts you will also know that it doesn't end with a prison sentence, you may never work again, you may never form a relationship or start a family as shure as hell SS will step in, you will forever be expected to offend, even more so if you maintain innocence, your only option is to get out of this country & leave loved ones behind. Main motives are money, jealousy, & revenge, keep fighting. mouse

[mouse]

Quote

Hi Rights Fighter,
They did appeal - it was thrown out. I submitted a review of conviction to the NSW Supreme Court, I have listed in the threads previously all of the evidence I placed forward but in the end nothing I did or put forward made a scrap of difference - showed how much this woman lied, made no difference, even to the point where the Crown even conceded that I did not injure her, that made no difference. I produced expert evidence from Criminal Profiler who showed this was a false complaint and forensically disected all of the evidence for the court - went nowhere.
But in my matter, I said it was consent, she said there was no consent, the jury found there was consent and it was withdrawn. WHEN WAS IT WITHDRAWN. What part of the evidence, because no one has been able to yet show that proposition. How can a woman state she was injured, then have the Crown say that the injuries cannot be excluded as having been occasioned at some other time other than the assault - a woman who stated she could not dance because of the injuries then be seen dirty dancing, touching other mens bodies on a stage in front of over 100 people then have her evidence of complaint accepted - easy. Because if the Court start overturning convictions, that would show that women do make false complaints, that would stop women coming forward because they would 'fear' they would be persecuted. You can see it all now.
But one thing I have lost is my name. This stain is on me for the rest of my life and how do you remove it? I fought, It took me fours years to place an application for a review of conviction and over 1000 pages of submission to be told that nothing I found made a scrap of difference. So how do you replace your name - how do you get back what makes you who you are? Your name. My favourite quote can be found in "The Crucible."
It truly sums up my fears about loosing my name:my identity.
"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!"

I think Charles Dickens said something similar, briefly as I can remember, 'if you take my purse, it is but a purse and has no value that can't be replaced, but steal my name and you steal my very soul' my apologies to Charlie as his version was far more eloquent. mouse