What should be changed in the system and how should we go about it?

[Itsnotallbad]

Hello users,

This thread is aimed at the short falls in the criminal justice system (from the police to the courts) surrounding sexual offences and the prosecution of them.

Some statistics before we start:

-Over half of the cases heard in crown court are sex related
-A crown court costs around £20,000 a day to stay open. So if a building has 10 court rooms thats £200,000.
- Last year from January to December there was a 41% increase in reports of sexual offences which results in 99,061 being reported.

Unfortunetly i haven'nt been able to find statistics about people accused of these crimes on bail (not surprised!!!)

My question/point to you,the users of this forum, is that with more sexual crimes being reported and with less resources for the criminal justice go deal with this influx,how do we safe guard ourselves from becoming victims of a system not able to support both sides?

I personally believe the system and the prosecuting bodies have become biased based on high profile cases gaining a lot of attention (saville etc). This has a knock on effect on the administration of justice for both parties involved.

What do you think should change in the criminal justice system before it is completely overwhelmed? How should it be changed? Should the CPS be overhauled or do you think its the fault of the police or is there really an epidemic with sexual violence in the UK?

Thanks!

[Franticwithworry]

Lots needs changing but first thoughts are that the police should be made to behave much more impartially. They should have empathy of course, but people who report crimes are complainants first and victims after the verdict. Also, targets for prosecutions are the wrong focus. Targets for conclusions would be more just and would allow the police to investigate both sides. Monetary compensation needs to go too. Long term counselling instead, but cut out the incentive to report and punish false reporting properly.

those are just my first thoughts late at night.

[wakingnightmare]

Stop compensation. Offer counselling instead. If you've suffered abuse how is money meant to compensate you any how. Surely coping strategies and long term counselling would have a more powerful impact on genuine victims and their future well being.

Stop the automatic assumption which is unique to those accused of these types of crimes of guilty until proved innocent.

Those accused should not be left on bail for months and months some kind of timeframe has to be put on its cruel to leave people for over a year like some on here without any prospect of a conclusion.

Start charging FAs and name them.

I'm tempted to put a time limit on historic abuse claims although I fear that would penalise genuine victims.

Grant anonymity to all parties until after trial only name the accused if guilty verdict.

Allow those accused and found not guilty or NFA'd to seek financial compensation for their loss of earnings and all financial costs - legal fees, living expenses (often they need to move out of the family home). Let them seek these from their accusers and the police force who investigated them, so incentivising the Police to actually carry out an impartial fair investigation. Ensure their is counselling for them and their wider families.

As many accusations on this forum seem to come during divorce proceedings as a means to get Legal Aid look at that system again.


They're my initial thoughts I'm sure I'll come back with more later on.

[wakingnightmare]

Lie detectors for all parties involved in these accusations.

Knew I'd think of something else

[Bene]

Stop compensation. Offer counselling instead. If you've suffered abuse how is money meant to compensate you any how. Surely coping strategies and long term counselling would have a more powerful impact on genuine victims and their future well being.

Dear walkingnightmare,


I can understand your frustration at the system I really do.
However I strongly disagree with the comments above.
First of all, the criminal injuries compensation authority) doesn't strictly deal with rape or sexual assault claims. The CICA) scheme is for anyone who has been a victim of a serious crime and has suffered physical or mental injuries as a result. Are you suggesting that the government should cut the CICA scheme all together, or just for rape claims?

If that's the case than you are indirectly implying that rape victims don't suffer serious physical or mental injuries and don't deserve to receive compensation like any other victim of a serious crime. Comments like that are not okay and I will always seek to challenge views like that.,

Rape victims suffer all sorts of injuries. Let me name a few for you rape victim; also lose earning, lose their jobs, and homes. In situations where your raped by a family member and no one wants to believe you, you lose your family too, friends. Many due to the stress are forced to drop out university or college) or don't do very well. Many other victims, suffer serve mental psychiatric issues due to the trauma of being raped) and are hospitalised or on heavy medication.


They are also many rape victims who suffer physical injuries or issues, they are those who contract an incurable sexually transmitted diseases become pregnant or were so brutally raped they suffered permanent serve injuries and now are paralysed or now unable to have children.


Your comments above fails to acknowledge the many victims who suffer from the lists of injuries I listed above and simply getting counselling every week will not help them.

Counselling is completely subjective it may help some but not others.
And secondly they are serval organisation that offer free long term counselling)


Money by no means equals justice or will it compensate for what happened to you) if I had an option I would prefer to see my rapist prosecuted and convicted than seek any compensation. But I don't have that choice!! Compensation is not guaranteed just because you apply it doesn't always mean you will be rewarded with anything. Many are refused compensation!

However compensation for those who have suffered horrible injuries can be very useful in helping you re build your life after it has been destroyed.

Genuine Rape victims deserve compensation just like anyone else.



Have a good day.

[Itsnotallbad]

[QUOTE=Bene;63844]

Stop compensation. Offer counselling instead. If you've suffered abuse how is money meant to compensate you any how. Surely coping strategies and long term counselling would have a more powerful impact on genuine victims and their future well being.

Dear walkingnightmare,


I can understand your frustration at the system I really do.
However I strongly disagree with the comments above.
First of all, the criminal injuries compensation authority) doesn't strictly deal with rape or sexual assault claims. The CICA) scheme is for anyone who has been a victim of a serious crime and has suffered physical or mental injuries as a result. Are you suggesting that the government should cut the CICA scheme all together, or just for rape claims?

If that's the case than you are indirectly implying that rape victims don't suffer serious physical or mental injuries and don't deserve to receive compensation like any other victim of a serious crime. Comments like that are not okay and I will always seek to challenge views like that.,

Rape victims suffer all sorts of injuries. Let me name a few for you rape victim; also lose earning, lose their jobs, and homes. In situations where your raped by a family member and no one wants to believe you, you lose your family too, friends. Many due to the stress are forced to drop out university or college) or don't do very well. Many other victims, suffer serve mental psychiatric issues due to the trauma of being raped) and are hospitalised or on heavy medication.


They are also many rape victims who suffer physical injuries or issues, they are those who contract an incurable sexually transmitted diseases become pregnant or were so brutally raped they suffered permanent serve injuries and now are paralysed or now unable to have children.


Your comments above fails to acknowledge the many victims who suffer from the lists of injuries I listed above and simply getting counselling every week will not help them.

Counselling is completely subjective it may help some but not others.
And secondly they are serval organisation that offer free long term counselling)


Money by no means equals justice or will it compensate for what happened to you) if I had an option I would prefer to see my rapist prosecuted and convicted than seek any compensation. But I don't have that choice!! Compensation is not guaranteed just because you apply it doesn't always mean you will be rewarded with anything. Many are refused compensation!

However compensation for those who have suffered horrible injuries can be very useful in helping you re build your life after it has been destroyed.

Genuine Rape victims deserve compensation just like anyone else.



Have a good day.

It's nice to see an opposing view. Thanks for putting it across in a respectful manner. It can be hard with topics like these.

Thanks again!

[wakingnightmare]

Have a good day.

My Ex husband used to end all his deeply patronising diatribes with that sign off too!

Not for the first time on this Forum you've made a huge assumption about the background of a poster and their own life experience. This is a public forum therefore I and many others moderate what we share about ourselves.

I've been here months Bene ��

[Lilyput]

Hugely difficult... it seems like a bit of a double edged sword between negatively impacting genuine rape victims and the falsely accused.

Lie detector tests sound like a good idea.

Though honestly I don't think historic cases with no proof should ever get to trial, as your being convicted by public opinion. Unless of course they have some kind of proof, e.g witnesses, told a doctor at the time, or love letters, pictures etc for a under age relationship. Maybe instead they should be able to just file a report and if any evidence comes to light or anybody else comes toward then it should be properly investigated.

I think it's unfair for innocent people to defend themselves about something that never even happened years and years ago. All they can do is tell the truth and say no that never happened but it's nearly impossible to prove innocence. Also I can't imagine being on a jury on a he said she said case from yonks ago. It would be down to who you believed what if one was a good liar? You set a rapist free or put an innocent person in prison?

Also no media or selling stories before trial if i already hear a story about a suspected monster i'd be less likely to listen to him openly without judgement. I think anonymity for all parties until the accused is proven guilty.

[Franticwithworry]

I've marshalled my thoughts a little better now -

Firstly - Perhaps monetary compensation should be limited to proven losses, with fixed sums for mental suffering and only awarded when a guilty verdict and sentencing is handed down. I read somewhere (here?) that compensation can be given even when there is no prosecution and, if correct, that is too much of an incentive to make a false report. Of course, a victim of sexual crime deserves compensation like any other, but not more so. Men are now having to fight against 'the feminisation of justice' as a human rights judge aptly termed it and this is as sexist as it was before, when women were considered chattels. The scales of justice have swung too far and we have to redress the balance. As a society, we seem to have decided that sexual crime is something that every man is just waiting to perpetrate on every woman, that every sexual encounter is a rape in waiting. It's not.

As a woman, I find this assault on men disturbing. It puts all the responsibility on men's shoulders, and leaves them open to women's sexual regret in ways that ruins their lives for ever. That is not right, and must be addressed. Have we learned nothing in the last 60 years? My mother tried to teach me that 'men are only after one thing' and that I had to live my life to protect myself from their advances. They are not, and her words subscribed to a myth that was an insult to my kind and gentle father, my husband, many men represented on this site, the men that my sons have grown up to be and many, many others.

There are many good men in the world and what some women and the justice system is doing to them is unconscionable. Great steps are being taken in bringing up strong girls and shifting the balance a bit in teaching boys not to rape - remember the tea cartoon? - but we've gone too far in making men take responsibility for all things sexual. We need to find ways to punish the men who do use sex as a weapon, and I'm not denying that there are many, but without victimising the men who don't.

Secondly - The police need to be able to make decisions when they know someone is lying, and need to have concrete evidence for a prosecution. If the targets were 'resolutions' and not 'prosecutions' there would be less pressure to take ridiculous cases to court. I'm praying that the judge who sent the prosecution away for 4 weeks (in itsover's case I think it was), to come back with something more before trial, is the tip of an iceberg of judges who are fed up with this nonsense.

Thirdly - The language on the CPS website and used by the police needs to change too. There is no victim until there is forensic evidence or a guilty verdict; until then, there is a complainant and an alleged offender. If the CPS and the police are to be impartial, they must speak impartially too.

Fourthly - The whole culture has to change. The idea that women and children don't lie is a nonsense. False accusers have also committed a crime and they need to know that there are consequences for their actions. If the police are worried about crime figures, prosecuting false accusers to the full extent of the law would increase their prosecution figures.

There is change coming, albeit small. Theresa May has already got a bill going through parliament that should restrict the amount of time that people can spend on police bail, but I would like to see a statutory obligation on the police to keep people on bail informed as to the progress of the case. It seems to vary very widely - some people get phone calls, some people get reasonable updates if they ask, others get nothing. Personally, I think the idea of 'why are you worried if you've done nothing wrong' is upside down. It's excruciatingly worrying to have your life on hold and a jail sentence hanging over you if you've done nothing wrong, if it's all based on lies that you have no evidence to disprove but your word and the culture is that every man in the country is a sexual predator.

Sadly, much if it is cultural perception, that didn't get here in a hurry and it won't change in a hurry. I suspect it needs enough people with influence to be falsely accused, accusations that can be shown to be false, so that they will campaign for change. I'm not sure that Mr. and Mrs. Joe Bloggs' voices are going to be listened to. I raised this question when I first joined the site and was told that it was a topic brought up often and regularly.

Edited to add - Fifthly - I think that I'm correct in saying that the UK is the only EU country with no limitation in allegations of rape. I think we need to consider a limitation. Prosecutions without having a shred of physical evidence are simply a witchunt.

Sixthly - I don't believe that a complainant should be allowed to change material facts in her statement. For the police to go back to her after interviewing an accused man so that she can change dates and places to fit what he said is, to me, a perversion of justice. If she changes details spontaneously and for herself, that's fine, of course, but to be prompted by the police should be illegal.

[Lilyput]

I agree with this as a women I also hate the way men are treated in general and as a result other than close friends I find it really hard to get on with other women.

There's so much on facebook making derogatory comments to men... and going on about how hard it is to be a girl or a woman. It's really a perfect storm between my OH's FA and an old school friend of mine being horribly abused by a woman. People's attitudes about it was so mocking and unkind. Yet when another friend (female) posted on twitter her husband threw the dinner she'd cooked in the bin people were lining up to tell her this was abuse.

As a woman I don't view myself as weaker than a man well maybe physically (I'm 5'2) but not emotionally or mentally. I want equal treatment I don't want special treatment.

[Lilyput]

Btw I mean no offence to all the lovely women who have supported me on this forum . Just personal experience can cloud us I'm sure if a loved one was raped and a girlfriend was a victim of domestic violence I'd struggle to get along with some men.

[Bene]

My Ex husband used to end all his deeply patronising diatribes with that sign off too!

Not for the first time on this Forum you've made a huge assumption about the background of a poster and their own life experience. This is a public forum therefore I and many others moderate what we share about ourselves.

I've been here months Bene 

What assumptions have I made today?
I was simply responding to the comments you made regarding rape victims and compensation. I didn't agree with it. I found it quite insensitive. I have a right to express my views and opinions on a given topic, as everyone else. As this is an open forum where people come together sharing our experience, views and at times can agree to disagree on a given issues.


I didn't agree with what you said, I guess you didn't agree with what I have to say. Let's leave it at that.

I'm having a really great week, I've just completed 3 years of my undergraduate law degree!! Whoop whoop to me!!

[Izzy]

There are a few things that I would change if I could..

The first would be that anonymity should be granted to both parties and I would like to see it kept like that unless a guilty verdict was reached.
I hate the way that the press jump on someone being charged and I think it could interfere with getting a fair trial. Being accused is horrendous enough without having it splashed across the daily rags.
I think this could work in a complainants favour as you see in cases of famous people accused, social media trying to find out who the accuser is.
If anyone else wants to come forward then they can do it after the guilty verdict.

I hate the " you will be believed " it flies in the face of what our legal system is about so I would want a fair and thorough investigation for both sides.
The amount of time an investigation takes should kept under a year, whether charged or not.

Compensation should be paid only if a guilty verdict is reached, think it's crazy that it can be paid out whether the case goes to court or not.

A bigger punishment for false accusers.

Purely my own personal thoughts. Hope there's not too many typos as I've sat on my specs and broken them Bit blind without them.

[AmandaF]

If that's the case than you are indirectly implying that rape victims don't suffer serious physical or mental injuries and don't deserve to receive compensation like any other victim of a serious crime. Comments like that are not okay and I will always seek to challenge views like that.,

Rape victims suffer all sorts of injuries. Let me name a few for you rape victim; also lose earning, lose their jobs, and homes. In situations where your raped by a family member and no one wants to believe you, you lose your family too, friends. Many due to the stress are forced to drop out university or college) or don't do very well. Many other victims, suffer serve mental psychiatric issues due to the trauma of being raped) and are hospitalised or on heavy medication.

That's exactly the same for the falsely accused, even when it's not an offence of a sexual nature.

In countries where compensation was stopped, rape allegations fell by 80 % so what does that tell us about statistics?
I believe anyone suffering from severe trauma should be compensated but not in the stupid system we have where it only takes an allegation to be made to be eligible to make a claim.

I'd like to be compensated for the trauma I've suffered at the hands of people who perverted the course of justice but that will never happen as liars, like leopards, seldom change their spots.

The biggest change we need is as has already been mentioned, is for the police to act with fairness. I was told I was going to trial before i'd been arrested, before I even knew what it was i was supposed to have done. That definitely needs to stop. And I do think there should be a limit for historic allegations, say 10 years. How many of these high profile cases have tyrned out to be money wasting bulls***?

[Rights Fighter]

[QUOTE=Itsnotallbad;63845]

It's nice to see an opposing view. Thanks for putting it across in a respectful manner. It can be hard with topics like these.

Thanks again!

Unfortunately Bene is posting in the wrong part of the forums again. If you click on her username you will see her "contributions" where she writes at length about victims in the falsely accused area rather than in the FAd section.