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**diana_holbourn** · 17 June 2005, 08:40 PM

It might help if instead of focusing on the past, you encourage him to sit down with you and discuss your future together. First, it could help if you give yourself time and space to calm down, and then think out how you would ideally like your marriage to be, if he became willing to change.

After you've thought that through, you could tell him you'd like to make a new start. When you're sitting down together, you could ponder questions like:

"On a scale of 0 to 10, how does each of us rate our marriage satisfaction?"

You could take it in turns to ask how each would like things improved. For instance, perhaps you could start by interviewing him about it. You could ask how he rates his satisfaction in the marriage on a scale of 0 to 10. You know he'll choose a low number, and so would you, so don't be disheartened when it happens. As long as it's higher than a 0, ask him why it's as high as it is? Even if it's only a 2, it must mean that he thinks something's going right. If it is a 0, the likelihood is that it's unrealistically low, because if it really was that low, why would he still be with you? So ask what he thinks is going right in the relationship. Push him if he can't think of anything at first. If he mentions one thing, ask him what else is going right? And then ask him again what else is going right? Then ask him to think of another thing. Then ask him what would be happening if things were one point up on the scale. If he mentions some things that would be improved for him, ask him what difference that would make to him. When he tells you, ask him what difference the thing he's just told you would make to the relationship. When he tells you, ask him again what difference the new thing would make. As he keeps on mentioning more and more new things that would be different, keep asking him what difference each thing would make to him, or to the relationship, or what difference he thinks it would make to you, or to others around him. If he's challenged to think of each new difference that would come into your lives if a little thing changed for the better, he might become far more enthusiastic about the relationship, because the differences might all be positive, making him feel better and better about the potential of it. Ask him sometimes how the changes would be making him behave differently. If he says he'd behave better, ask each time he says something like that what difference he thinks that would make to your behaviour? If he thinks it would improve it, he'll have an incentive to put the changes he's describing into practice. Keep asking him for some time how he thinks each new change he mentions would make a difference to the relationship, or to you, or to other people around him. He'll hopefully come up with more and more positive answers, and come to realise that the more positive changes he makes in his life, the better it will make you feel, and the better you feel, the happier you'll be, and the happier you are, the more cheerful you'll be around him, and the more cheerful you'll be around him, the happier he'll be with the relationship, etc., in a positive upward spiral.

When you've asked him questions for some time to try to get that effect, ask how confident he is about implementing all the changes he's discussed in the next month, on a scale of 0 to 10. As long as the number he comes up with is higher than a 0, ask him why he thinks it's that number rather than a 0? He might mention a few changes that he feels sure he can put into place. When he has, ask what else makes it that number and not a 0? He might be able to think of more changes he feels sure he could make. Ask him again what else makes it that number. Then ask him what he would have to do differently in order to move it just one point up on the scale? Ask what else, and then what else. Then ask what he thinks would be a good way of doing those things.

Hopefully, the conversation will have made you both feel a lot more optimistic. When you've finished interviewing him, ask if he'd like to interview you in the same manner.

Hopefully, the conversation will make you optimistic that even when each of you makes changes that are minor at first, each one may rub off on the other person, making them behave differently, and that in turn will hopefully make the other behave better, etc.

While you're interviewing him, try your best not to criticize him, even if he says something you're not keen on, because that will destroy the positivity.

If you have a nice conversation, perhaps agree to celebrate by going out somewhere romantic together that you'll both like.

In future, if he says something hostile towards you, instead of saying something horrible in return, ask him how he'd like things to be instead. Maybe ask him how he thinks it might change your behaviour if he changed his in some way.

Let us know how it goes.

**littlemoo** · 17 June 2005, 08:54 PM

Diana has made some good points.
Also: Communicate, communicate. It's the best way to change things.
You need to try and understand each other to make things better.
If you can't say what you want to, try writing it down, or emailling it.
If you're going to therapy, I hope it is helping, keep it up. Are you both going?

If you do try Diana's suggestions, or any others, to make changes in your life - make sure you are both willing to compromise. There's no point just one of you making all the changes.

~Jo

**Barefaced** · 18 June 2005, 12:45 AM

He came home from work and I had written him a very long letter stating all of how I felt. He still cant see it from my side and is still very stubbornly saying that i cant see it from his side. I told him how I felt he needed to cut back on the smoking weed and he disagreed with me all the way. He is the most stubborn and bloody minded person I know and Im the one married to him!!! Go figure!! I mentioned that I had spoken to my therapist and he had the cheek to say to me "well I hope she did you some good" My reply was "well she wants to help you" and his reply was "I dont need any help". What can i do?? I walked out and ended up calling him from down the road on my cell phone just as I knew we wouldnt get interuppted by kids and it wouldnt end up in some slanging match. He said that he still wants me but he cant live with the fact that he hasnt had the 3some yet. I am upto my eyeballs in antidepressants so now is not the best time to be doing it. He disagrees as it is him that has waited 4 years with me for it.

I feel as though I am going round and round in circles and although Ive told him I desperately want to give it another try I really dont know what is going to come of it. How he is right now is so far from how we need to start off. He wont laugh, wont talk to me with any kind of spark in his voice. Im torn apart so badly and I really dont know if I can do this anymore.

**diana_holbourn** · 18 June 2005, 10:21 PM

How much respect do you feel you have for yourself? What more would you like to be getting out of life if you could? Are there things you could do that would get you out of that environment more, stop you brooding on things so much, and give you a sense of achievement, like evening classes? Does he allow you to be your own person?

Why is he so preoccupied with the idea of the threesome? Why does he think it's so important to him? Have you asked? I have to wonder whether he can be living a meaningful life himself if he's so preoccupied with such a thing! Is there anything in life you feel sure he'd be good at and would be prepared to have a go at doing if you encouraged him to do it? If he was enjoying doing other things, maybe the preoccupation with the idea of the threesome would fade into the background.

The idea of the interviewing techniques I suggested is that you don't criticize each other, since that will get you into an argument immediately, but you just ask each other first of all to think about what is going right, even if nothing much is. Even if you both have to think for a while and then only come up with one or two things that are going right, at least that might make you feel a little more positive. I'm a bit curious as to why you married him in the first place. What did you see in him? What did he see in you? What was going right when you married? What would it take to gradually get back to how you were then, taking things one little step at a time? It might take quite a bit of planning, but it may help if you plan out lots of little steps towards getting things right and make it your aim to achieve just one a day or something, and not to be disheartened if sometimes you don't succeed. The steps could be things like, "I'd like my husband to hug me when he comes in the door in the evening", or "I'd like my wife to give me a compliment every day on something I do do right". They only have to be tiny, so they're easily achieved, and that will encourage you if they are achieved. If you can persuade him to do the task with you, you could write them down together on a sheet of paper, put it on the wall, and tick each task after a week or two when they seem to be becoming routine. This will mean that when you feel disheartened because you don't think there's been enough progress for your liking, you can look at all the little steps you have achieved, and this might make you feel better. Thinking about what you want to go right rather than about everything that's gone wrong will give you something to work towards rather than making you feel worse and worse. You could plan out the steps together, if you feel that would be a helpful way to go about things, after you've discussed what you both want out of your marriage.

But first, after you've sat down with him and talked about even just one or two things that are going right in your marriage, it may help if you think of just very little things at first that would make improvements, and ask him to do the same, perhaps by using the scales I mentioned. They only have to be tiny things to start off with. You can build on them through talking about how they would make a difference in your lives. It would be best if you both suggested things you know the other person would be willing to do at first. Then you'll feel as if you're making progress rather than just getting stuck. Asking repeatedly how positive changes would make a difference, in the way I suggested, could change your attitudes from ones in which you feel utterly fed up, to ones in which you feel more optimistic about how things could improve and what they'd be like if they did. For instance, if someone said they were only at a 1 on a scale of 0 to 10 representing how satisfied they were with their marriage, and they were asked what little changes would have to happen to put it just one point up on the scale, or even just half a point up, if they were suggesting something that sounded too big when they were asked what would move it up one point, and they had to be changes their partner would agree with, suppose they said that one nice little change would be if their partner would smile at them more. Then suppose someone asked, "What difference would that make?" and they said, "It would make me feel happier". Then they were asked, "What difference would that make", and they said they'd be in less of a bad mood. Then they were asked, "What difference do you think that would make to your husband/wife, and they said, "It might put her/him in a better mood, because I wouldn't be so grumpy with her/him", and they were asked, "And what difference would that make"? They might say, "He/she'd be more willing to treat me better". And if they were then asked, "And what difference would that make"? they might say, "He/she'd do things for me that he/she doesn't do now". If they were asked, "And what difference would that make?" They might say, "I'd be happier". If they were asked, "And what difference would that make?" they might say, "I'd be more cheerful and feel my life was going better". If they were asked yet again, "And what difference would that make?" they might say, "I'd want to do things that were more fun with my wife/husband."

So you see that even if they just start by saying they'd like their partner to smile a bit more, you can get them talking themselves into imagining great big changes that could happen from tiny ones. If they start to feel happy at all the great changes they're imagining could happen, and if they realise that if they start being nicer to or happier around their partner, their partner will start being nicer or happier around them, they'll have an incentive to change for the better, so they're more likely to, and you might not even need to plan out little steps together.

There are one or two ways in which the technique could go wrong, mainly if you forget to ask what difference he thinks things might make to you. He might end up imagining that a whole load of nice changes could start happening if only you'd change, instead of realising that they would happen if he changed as well.

It could be better if the questions were asked each of you by a third party while the other wasn't there, and then you could both go into the room together and all three of you could discuss what you said. Do you have a friend you'd both trust enough to discuss these techniques with, who'd be willing to try them out with you?

Also, it might help if you try to think about what's happening on the days when there is less trouble in your relationship, and when you're less depressed. It may well be that some days are better than others. What's happening on those days that makes them better? Or it may be that some days get better as they go on, or start off better than other days. What's happening then to make them better? Once you've come up with some answers, perhaps you could deliberately make those things happen sometimes. Perhaps you could ask him some questions like, "On the days when things aren't as bad as they are on other days, what's happening? How are they different?"

You may know about these things, but I know they could help some people who might find this thread: When communicating with him, there are ways of saying things that make them sound less provocative, and you may also be able to coax him to be less hostile in the way he says things to you. For instance, when accusing him of something, phrasing it something like, "You always do ... such-and-such", will put him on the defensive, because for a start, he might not always do it; and starting a complaint with the word "you" and not giving a reason why you don't like the behaviour, makes it sound like an accusation, which will immediately make him want to argue. A better way to phrase it can be something like, "I feel hurt when you do such-and-such, because ... (This bad thing happens). As an example, here's a clip from a web page about what to do when people say horrible things to you, and how to complain to people about their behaviour in a way that won't annoy them so much:

"... The three-part message is a language pattern for making complaints. It's designed to get past the automatic negative reaction people have to complaints and bring about the desired change in behavior. The pattern is: "When you (X), I feel (Y), because (Z)." All three parts must be items that can be verified in the real world. This pattern is more likely to produce that behavior change than traditional complaints, and is always the best move. Example: "When you don't water the tomatoes, I feel angry, because plants die without water."

From http://adrr.com/aa/overview.html

You may find the whole page useful.

Another thing that might help is active listening. When he says something nasty to you, instead of protesting, it might help if you repeat it back to him. Try to do it calmly, without an attack in your voice, or it'll just put him on the defensive. He might say another nasty thing, but just repeat that back to him as well. For instance, suppose he says, "You never treat me right". You could say, "You think I never treat you right" as calmly as you can. If he says, "Yes! You only ever think about yourself!" It might be the most untrue thing he's ever said, but instead of arguing about it, it might help if you try not to get upset but just repeat it calmly back to him by saying something like, "You believe I only ever think about myself". He might say a few more hurtful things, but by just repeating them back to him, you'll hopefully calm him down, rather than working him up more by arguing with him, and you'll make him think about his words. So if he's saying things that are really unfair, he'll come to think about them, and hopefully realise they're unfair, and modify what he's saying. If he says something like, "Why do you keep repeating things back to me?!" You could say something as calmly as you can like, "I'm trying to do my best to find out how you really feel; I'd like to know, so we can understand each other better". When he knows the horrible things he's saying no longer seem to be upsetting you or making you angry, it won't be any fun saying them anymore, so he might find it boring, and so it may be that he'll say horrible things a lot less. It may also be that it makes him feel happier, because when you repeat his words, it will make him feel as if you're listening to him and taking in what he says, trying to see things from his point of view.

You may have more strength to get through this experience than you realise. It might help if you think of all the things you've achieved in life - everything you've ever done that you can feel proud of or pleased at having managed to do. If it helps, think right back to your childhood and then think about what you achieved year by year. Think about anything you had to struggle to get through, but came through well. But don't dwell on the bad things. Think about what good qualities you have that helped you achieve each one of those things, whether it was a nice thing or a bad experience that you succeeded in coming through. The qualities may have been things like determination, creativity, staying power, resilience, or whatever. When you've thought about all the good qualities you have that enabled you to achieve and get through all the things you've thought about, think about how those qualities could help you to get through the situation you're in now.

**diana_holbourn** · 19 June 2005, 07:55 AM

Just one or two more things: If you tell him you've got plans as to how to give your marriage a fresh start and he says there can be no new start till you've had the threesome, he might become less insistent on the idea if you explain a little bit about the scales, saying they're a way of helping you determine how satisfied you are with your marriage and working out little things that could improve it; and say that having a threesome would be several points up on the scale from where you'd need to start, because the best chance for improving things will be if things change gradually so the changes are achievable and will be pleasing to both of you; but when you move up the scale, the atmosphere will get better and better, so when you do decide to do more ambitious things, you'll enjoy them a lot more. Of course, it may be that by the time you've moved up to the number you decide doing a threesome would be on on the scale and you're as satisfied with your marriage as you tell him you'd want to be for one to happen, he won't regard the idea of the threesome as being that important, because he'll be finding fulfilment in other things. But now, if he thinks it's something that might be in reach if he does smaller things first, it could give him more of an incentive to do them, and he'll be happier knowing you're not refusing altogether at the moment.

Don't be tempted to start describing everything that needs to change first. The task of changing may seem far too big and overwhelming to do all in one go, and if it sounds as if you're criticizing him, it'll just put him off trying. Once you've succeeded in little things, you may both be more optimistic about changing the relationship more. But it's best to start by moving up the scale gradually.

It might take confidence for you to take charge of the situation in the way you might have to if you're going to take the lead in persuading him to sit down and do the scaling techniques with you, if you do decide to do that. Maybe if you're not feeling that confident about doing it, rehearsing it in your mind a few times when you're feeling quite calm could help.

**Barefaced** · 20 June 2005, 11:53 AM

Well I thought everything was heading in the right direction but how wrong I was. It turns out that he doesnt care anymore about the whole situation, or atleast how I am feeling about it.

He told me on Friday night that he rated our marraige on an average of 8 out of 10 which is great. There were things that he said we could focus on like spending more time together etc which were all things I agreed with. He's away now for 5 days so we talked for 2 hours on the phone last night. I asked him again about the 3some and said that I still wanted to do it but there were a few things I wanted to make straight. When we were first together he said that if I didnt like it then he wouldnt push it again. He said we would have tried it and thats that. Now hes saying he wants to carry on doing it no matter how I feel about it. We also agreed a long time ago that he wouldnt have sex with the other woman and when I mentioned it again he went silent and I just knew he wanted to have sex with her. I couldnt sit back and watch that and hes known that for 4 years. He said that in the beginning of a relationship you agree with the other person no matter what as you want to make them happy. Now I guess we dont have to do that!!

I am more than willing to do this 3some but there are limitations that everyone goes by and he is not willing to listen to my limitations. I feel as though I am being emotionally blackmailed. I asked him why he was being so stubborn and mean and his reply was "Thats just me" I told him that if things werent any better before I go home for a visit in 2 weeks then the chances are I wouldnt come back. He said fine. Why is he being so stubborn?? He said that if someone asked him to do something or they would kill his mom then he said he would say go ahead do what you want!! It is either his way or no way.

I ended up on the phone to a crisis line last night at 130am. I was on my knees in the middle of the floor sobbing my heart out for 2 hours after the phone call not knowing which way to turn. I feel as though I am flogging a dead mule, no mater what I do it will come back and shoot me in the foot. I followed my heart 4 years ago and decided to give everything up for him and move across the world and this is how he repays me. I really dont know what to do now.

**littlemoo** · 20 June 2005, 02:23 PM

I'm sorry to hear that it's not working out. Do you have any friends you can talk to locally or any that you can go and stay with so it doesn't all get too much for you.

~Jo

**Elina** · 20 June 2005, 10:39 PM

Dear Barefaced,

Don't give up on yourself! I know exactly how you feel. I am 31 years old and married to a guy who has admitted that he does not love me and that he does not care about me or my feelings. When I wrote to the forum for the first time, about two weeks ago, I was scarred. Not so much scared about not being loved, but scared for a future. By reading your posts I have a feeling that you, just like me, are afraid of a future, mostly afraid of being all alone. I and my husband are still together and things are not getting better between us. However, more I cry, more I think about everything (read my post if you are interested), I found some strength inside. I said to myself: "You have giving him everything you could, you loved him even when he didn't deserve it, you are a great mother, a great wife, and there is nothing else you can do. So, start thinking, loving and living not for the family, but only for yourself and your child." It may not be a good decision, but guess what; it is helping me cope with the situation. If he doesn't want to join us at a family event, so be it! I made my plans and I am going! I am also looking for some clubs to join... Something like "mothers with children", or anything to make me independent from him. While I am with him, I am preparing myself for an independent ME. If things don't work out between us (and I really really want them to), I AM LEAVING. I gave myself a word! If you knew me, you would be surprised.
I too go to the therapist now... One thing that is clear is that if he is not willing to work on our marriage (same with you), you have two choices:
1. Prepare yourself for consequences. He will get worse.
2. Leave.

Be strong! I am with you on this one! (((HUG)))

P.S. No 3some baby!

Don't force yourself. It will not fix your marriage.

**diana_holbourn** · 21 June 2005, 12:52 AM

If it's causing you this much distress, maybe a longer time away from him would be a good idea. He might do things you don't want him to do in your absence, but it sounds as if he might do them whether you were there or not. When you married him, did you think you were marrying the person he really is, or did you marry someone you thought he was, or hoped he was? There are men who treat women as if they're special during their courtship, so they become attracted to them, but once they're married, they reveal their true natures and become manipulative and abusive. Or do you think the drugs make him like this? Is he more reasonable when he hasn't taken any? While a person is on drugs, they can become insensitive to the feelings of those around them and less caring about what they say, and according to some, more likely to have affairs. If you've noticed that there are times when he can have more reasonable conversations, like when he hasn't taken any drugs, it might be best to try to work out when those times are likely to be, and try to only discuss important issues with him then. Does he change his attitudes and become more considerate when he hasn't taken any drugs? Are there certain times of the day or week when you can feel fairly sure he's going to be more considerate, times when he will have time to discuss things? Are there times when he's more likely to agree with you that he needs to change? If you can think of a time in the week when he's more likely to consider cutting down on drugs, you could try making him more enthusiastic to do so then by asking him questions like, "If you didn't take so many drugs or other chemical stimulants, what would you like to be doing instead that would fill the gap left in your life?" If you don't like the answer, instead of arguing, it might be better to just move on to other questions like, "What do you think you could achieve in life if you weren't on drugs that you could do better than you could on them and be proud of?" "If you weren't spending money on drugs, what would you like to do with it?" "How do you think your life could improve if you weren't on drugs?" "How do you think your health might improve if you weren't on drugs?" "What might you do to give yourself a real sense of satisfaction in life if you were doing that instead of taking drugs?" It's important to ask the questions in as positive a manner as you can, and to make sure they don't sound like attacks or criticisms, or he'll just attack back.

It might be best if you try to avoid arguments completely with him when you suspect he's had any drugs, not bringing up any issues you feel are important, and refusing to take the bait and trying not to get upset if he says something horrible to you, just putting it down to the drugs talking. He might say a lot of things just to be mean that he doesn't think really, and wouldn't think if he was off drugs. If he tries to spark off an argument when he's on them, the best thing to do may be to just try and defuse it by not responding in a hostile way to the horrible things he says, but trying to say things he can't get angry about, thinking you'll postpone the argument till he's in a more reasonable mood. Here's an article on possible responses to people who are trying to provoke verbal conflict that will hopefully stop the argument from escalating: Dealing With Hostile Bait:?Some Tips & Techniques. This is about the workplace, but it could apply in other situations. It may be that certain suggested questions won't be appropriate for certain situations you're in. But with a bit of thinking through, you could probably work out how to apply the advice in a way that would be best for you.

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I'm new here and need some advice long post, sorry

I'm new here and need some advice long post, sorry

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I'm new here and need some advice *long post, sorry*

I'm new here and need some advice *long post, sorry*

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I'm new here and need some advice long post, sorry

I'm new here and need some advice long post, sorry